Top 14 : REVOIR la claquette de Lanen qui permet la victoire de Clermont

I actually don't have access to stats pertaining to run/pass/kick distribution. Where do you find them?

I had seen stats confirming the evidence of my eyes that England's outside backs barely received any passes in the autumn, but those stats are now behind a paywall. I can't cite specific figures because of that, but I'm not going to deny what I know to be true just because you have more figures to hand!

The point of sharing the article wasn't to push Charlie Morgan specifically, but just because the article presents pretty clear cut statistics showing how rarely outside backs have been touching the ball when Marcus is at 10.

I think Ford looks very coachable and England shouldn't lose faith in him. Marcus Smith has just been given lots and lots of chances and its never translated into results.

I agree that getting worse is often the way it works for any player, any position. Pointing that out is in no sense a refutation of anything I've said.

That's hard to say, but he certainly hasn't got much better. At 20 he was the top scorer in the six nations, and hasn't been since. At 20 he scored 3 tries in the six nations, and hasn't scored that many since. At 20 he was nominated for 6 nations player of the tournament, and hasn't been since. At 22 he was selected at 10 in the offical 6 nations team of the tournament, and hasn't been since. About a year or two ago a load of people started saying he was the best 10 in the world, which they hadn't previously, but my perception was that this was less because he had gotten better, and more that in 2020 his world class performances could be written off as flukes whereas by 2023 they were clearly representative of his genuine talent.

"Isn't that what your asking for from Marcus?"

Is what what I'm asking for from Marcus?

This thread began with me trying to explain that there is no reason to think that Marcus Smith will improve going forwards. Do you agree or disagree with that point?

"that the team wants/needs an older version of Dan Carter? Or are you just basing this of win ratio."

What? I literally argued that Dan Carter was at least as good when he was young as he was when he was older. And no, I'm not basing this off win ratio; I just think that England's low win ratio is partly a result of Marcus Smith being much worse than people realise.

"Of course some don't continue to develop past the age of 20. You're not really making any sort of argument unless you have new data. 26/27 is undoubtedly the peak of most positions/peole."

That is literally the argument I am making though. The fact that you agree with me doesn't invalidate my point. People in this thread were arguing that Marcus Smith would continue to improve going forwards; I argued that he might not, and that even if he does he is already not far from his peak. He will literally be 26 next month, so if you are right that 26/27 is undoubtedly the peak of most "peole", he's only got 5 more weeks of development in him!

"Hahaha, define "good"? I'd suggest to you theyre a "good" side now"

I think finishing 3rd at the world cup is good. I think beating Ireland is good. I think losing 5 consecutive matches isn't good. I define good in terms of winning games, and I think that the world rankings are a pretty good metric for quantifying whether consequential games have been won in a team's recent history. How are you defining "good"?

"Surely Ford or Farrell must have had a period of great success somewhere? What about 2015?"

I honestly don't know what you're talking about, or how it bears any relation to this conversation. Farrell probably peaked sometime around 2016 or 2017, Ford probably peaked a couple of years later, but Ford is still a better player now than Marcus Smith is.

"But my point was more the game in England. Having only recently adapted a more open game, the pioneers of that are going to find others take a while to catch up (your point about the rest of the team)."

England adapted pretty quickly to an open game in the six nations last year, and have got worse since then. If England play in the attacking style of play that is common in the premiership the players will pick it up quickly, as they are well used to it.

"So you want the rest of the team trying to halt this momentum and go back to a forward based game ala the success of the last two WCs?"

Seriously, what are you talking about? I don't want "the rest of the team trying to half this momentum", I want the rest of the team to be allowed to play the attacking rugby that comes naturally to them. You seem to have decided that because Marcus Smith has pioneered a style of rugby that works for a mid-table premiership side, the entire England national team should be forced to play it, even if it takes them years to learn it, and lose almost all their matches in the process?

LF coming back is an exciting prospect, but definitely seems to be a position fairly low on options. Billy Proctor obviously right up there but he had some serious defensive wobbles in his two games so far against fairly average opposition, but below that there aren't that many guys pushing for higher honours. Sullivan (when fit for 1 game per season) always looks dangerous, Macleod, Aumua, Umaga-Jensen.

ALB is a conundrum - 81 tests but not consistently excellent enough to own the shirt even after 8 seasons in the team - that must be rare in itself for so many coaches to see a player as the second best option to so many different players starting ahead of him. It's normally the type of thing you see with a halfback or hooker who is behind someone absolutely world class.

HARD MODE: try to answer without sounding like Nick Griffin.

I literally listed all the games under Borthwick where Marcus has started at 10. Do you want me to apologise for telling you who won those games?

"you suggested they didn't use him and used a different setup instead"

I suggested switching out Marcus for Fin. I didn't suggest that that would require other changes elsewhere in the team. My entire argument has been that Fin would better suit the strengths of the rest of the team, and allow England to play an attacking gameplan that (i) comes naturally to the players, and (ii) has worked well for them in the recent past.

"Oh right, so the side is starting to play better with him?"

No, its playing much much worse. In 2022 England didn't lose 5 consecutive games. In 2022 England beat Australia in Australia. In 2021 Marcus Smith helped England beat South Africa. That was the best England have ever looked with Marcus at 10, and its been downhill since then.

"I'd like to see it continue now and see how good a Marcus side could get"

We know the answer to that. Marcus Smith was England's starting flyhalf for 21 months from mid 2021 to the start of 2023, and they went from 3rd in the world to 6th in the world. He's a good club player, but his club performances haven't improved since then, so there's no reason to think there'll be a different outcome this time, and so far there hasn't been. This summer he came into a good (but not great) England team who seemed like they were on the up, and performances have got worse almost every week since.

IMO a little slow to turn on D but perhaps that has improved

Defence is a massive part of test midfield partnerships these days and whilst they polarise (both or one of them) Jor-ko lets little through - put it this way how many midfielders score through them?

Rieko is suffering on distribution but my his scramble D is incredible

It’s another reason why Proctor should be slowly persevered

He could skinned twice by Riley for Japan

Anyway I look forward to seeing Leicester back in black!

He played great in the World Cup quarterfinal then didn’t make the team in the final!!