All Blacks’ eligibility tradition isn’t worth losing the nation’s best talent

I feel you missed my answers meaning jon.

Hmmph, yeah maybe.

IF Mounga gets selected to play from Japan and NO ONE ELSE does, in other words he is given special treatment

I have not tried to answer/respond to this directly as I think it’s the rabbit hole I was talking about, because no matter what, when it comes back to it, this point is still valid. Without trying to get a back-and-forth going, i’ll say this, it is already happening. It is happening now with Ardie Savea and Sam Cane. Even, yes, maybe Mo’unga left because he saw how conveniently DMac was treated when he left for his stint, or either of Carter’s and Barrett’s before that. How much of a different effect was Richie McCaw’s non playing sabbatical or either Cane’s or Ardie’s sabbaticals now?

No matter what way you go about it, it’s going to be special treatment I’m afraid, the question we are wanting to know his giving away how much of it would be detrimental to NZR. You can get opening the gate out of your head, not going to happen. Maybe you can see it as effectively already having gone that far, with Razor have NO guaranteed AB loose forwards to select from SR (maybe you credit DP having earnt that billing) this year. Look at the other side though and realise that if we didn’t have those two available, with this current OS eligibility loophole, we could again have a whole cycle or two of trying to find suitable replacements, like we did with Frizzel after Kaino retired and Squire left. You can say “oh there’s guys that I like that are ready” but that’s what we were saying about the 6 jersey for nearly 8 years! Now, take it further and say that if either no one stands out at 6 or Frizzel had a blinder of a year in Japan and gets re-signed by NZR for 2025, before this years RC etc, why should we not just select him in this years All Blacks as well?

This discussion is not about “automatic AB selection”, that is like conceding the opening of eligibility and just saying that no one would qualify for it currently. Not having someone worthy of some idea you have for allowing eligibility doesn’t make you can’t invoke that idea right now. So rather than answer you questions (and indeed I don’t think it goes far enough) why can’t we just look at the basic dynamics of what is happening first? Your questions are important but I feel they are fairly hopeless questions as you don’t even know whether they will be relevant. Sign up Mounga for 2027 now, use him accordingly (who cares if he doesn’t go on EOT, that’s no different to now), then wait and see if others leave hoping they’d be playing good enough to force NZRs hand to sign them back on a much bigger contract as well. You can hypothesize all you like by you can’t really make an informed opinion until it’s tried IMO, and my opinion would be (in this particular example) no one in their right mind is going to believe they can do it (but you might snag one or two who gave up on being an AB altogether, like Bundee Aki, Jamison Gibson-Park, or Gareth Anscombe). That is the question (example being it persuades Burke to leave eg), are the implications of further eligibility changes worth it for NZR?

I feel you missed my answers meaning jon. IF Mounga gets selected to play from Japan and NO ONE ELSE does, in other words he is given special treatment, then that tells Dmac to go OS and earn as much as he can. And we know that would be a lot. If Mounga is special then why would Perofeta hang around? Why would Burke hang around? He is already being chased by Scotland I believe, and why would others bother if NZR says “Mounga is special and we are going to select him from OS to the detriment of those showing loyalty” but of course if everyone is able to be selected from OS then Mounga isnt being treated differently.

Should NZR open the gate then the gate wont ever be shut again. NZR will be beholding to clubs all around the world and Ive already seen Quade Cooper and Samu Kerevi being stopped from the 22 EOYT because the clubs stopped them from touring.

I believ NZR has the right policy now. Allow players to go OS fwhilst still contracted to them is clever. It means they come back home. It means they will play in the test side when they do.

The future may mean many things but now there is no need to allow OS players to play tests. Apart from Frizzel I dont see anyone else who would be an automatic AB selection and I celebrate Mounga leaving as he just doesnt play test rugby like he does SR. Time for a good clean-out. Also we have time to find the next no 6. There are options becoming available and Frizzel may well regret his decision in the end anyway.

Fantastic article. Richie Mou’nga and Shannon Frizzell should be made available to be in the All Black. Razor is a winner.Richie Mou’nga is the man. It is going to upset a few people. Who cares.

If he is given one why arnt others? why is he being treated differently to all other players… This is what would be asked by heaps of players and will lead to some anger. Plenty of discontent and maybe even agro at ABs camps.

They were good points though and I didn’t mean to make light of them, it’s just a never ending rabbit whole when you start that discussion, but here we go.

NZR cant do a dummy crash to test results. Thats just not possible.

Ofc they can, they can start by bringing back some of the vehicles and checking them out. Frizell is going to have it pretty easy is JRLO (Kwagga though, a rough time with the breakdown interpretations of the Japanese), will Nankivell develop a whole lot of extra skills that make him a better player? Both on 2 year contracts, one we still want to know if he can jump straight into the riggers of International footy(Brodie couldn’t), the other we want to know if he will have increased to AB level.

They CAN leave and be an AB if the selection policy is changed tho cant they.

Players are leaving now without any such policy. A 20yo kiwi just got selected in the English squad.

Lets talk Frizzel because Mounga isnt good enough to change any selection policy for.

If Frizzel leaves and is given a “Sabatical” that is different to the current sabaticals, then he gets selected in every test he can be…

…Why would any other possible 6 keep playing for reduced cash in NZ rugby? They would rightly say “How is Frizzel being assessed v them? They would rightly say “Frizzel is being given special treatment as he is only playing in a weak Japan league not in a stronger SR comp.

To answer you question directly then, as you didn’t seem to enjoy my other reply. If they select Shannon in every match, then he has ascended to goat level, Kaino level (quite possible), he would be looked up to as indispensable and a great role model. Every other 6 will be getting more cash (you haven’t made your point well) because NZR is paying a fraction for Shannon now. They will be assed directly from the practice pitch and in game, with some replacing him and some being used at lock or no8 along side for direct comparison (though this is not important, as you have already made undisputable in the 6 jersey, everyone else is competing for backup). Domestically they will be evaluated along side each other for pecking order and any possible crossover matches (and potentially the introduction of Japanese sides in SR). Shannon will still need to work just as hard as the local boys if he’s going to maintain his edge to reach your high standards.

They then leave as conditions arnt equal. Why stay to play for less and NOT be considered for selection because Frizzel keeps getting selected?

All hypothetical of course but its human nature to get annoyed at unfair treatment and its human nature to react to that.

So there will not be any thought of special or unfair treatment, resentment or discontent. They won’t leave before they become ABs, because then their value will be no where near as high. Players will continue to be selected as befits their ability. Players will continue go elsewhere if their path is blocked, it maters not whether Shannon is playing locally or overseas to those players. Nankivell is current example.

Our standards are so high I can see it being very difficult to retain AB status while overseas, so the one proposition I’ll offer you, along the lines of what pecos is saying, is just say there is some unlucky timing in negotiations and someone overseas is going to offer money that NZR is not willing to commit to yet for a player (ala LF), we want to see NZR with a goal to keep in contact with that player and being able to commit to them in two years time if they’re playing well (why just let someone stay overseas if what your willing to pay is enough to get him back) to bring them back. BUT what if that is only viable by that ‘NZR contact’ being in the form of All Black squad selections during those two years? Being that the sticky points are both that they need some confidence in NZRs assurances and, that they need familiarity with AB standards and philosophy’s to keep there levels high enough to warrant AB consideration still. What detriment (as I’ve only ever heard you speak negatively on the topic) can you see from that implementation coming about?

So Lester had worked his way into, what I would call, the top power wing spot (some would say that is Talea, because he was starting, but I’d argue it is better to say the ABs went with two traditional wings by picking him) after he had been lured overseas. He’s gone into a league were that style should be utilized well and developed, but say his team don’t do well or take a different tact, and without AB camps and even games on the end of a slick backline, he otherwise might regress and be lost. We both, for argument sake, say that it’s imperative NZ maintains the highest standards wherever possible and has the best available person in each position type. So it’s agreed that LF is brought into squad he can, with that level scrutinization and contact require, do you see that causing much of an exodus? NZR engages any similar player who is the top, or perhaps even backup, in their area (eg tactically you ensure you have a kicking flyhalf in Pollard, and a playmaker flyhalf in Libbok) is available for the ABs, but their is a clear expectation that availability is guaranteed etc so that means playing in NZ. There would just be certain allowances (very similar to sabbaticals) like contract and WC cycle timings with player age (development stage, coming of age too late in the cycle to take a top two spot), or their SR teams strength and backup (eg McCaw in a Crusader era when there was multiple backups), or weakness (Aaron at Landers), because I agree the current situation is fairly iffy with who’s awarded these things, so make some markers that allow players to be chased and play while theyre overseas. Perhaps its just an alarm bell that goes off whenever anyone is offered X amount more than what NZR offer, theyre allowed to leave? Maybe you can think of a scenario, but pick an idea of how many you could envisage and anyone time and what negative side effects do you see.

Yup, I said current FP, are you trying to say you think all these on sabbaticals currently are teaches pets? Ardie and Cane should have to come back through NPC rugby first, then become eligible for EOT in your eyes?

If you still don’t get it, I’m saying that the reason Mounga gets a clause is the same reason Carter, Reid, Ardie, BBBR, Cane, Dmac, all got clauses. I don’t care what that reason is, whether it’s because theyve been teaches pets or whatever. That you took my joke literally tells me you’re taking these situations literally. Look, nothing is going to change in the immediate future, we are simply using it as a basis to form opinions and ideas on what could happen. Yes they all get special treatment, I don’t have the inclination to right a 10 page thesis on sabbaticals, especially just for discussion of this one topic. I’m interested in make some small progress though, so we are taking these like sabbaticals as accepted and not inequailty.

Well that]s a different story, and one Pecos highlighted here (which he though eligibility might help reduce), those parts are arguably already in terminal decline. I no longer necessarily think it will go that way, with the business side of things seemingly doing very well and holding pace with France. But on the pitch I think it is a very tenuous balance holding everything in place, its a game of spot the rugby fan in most of my circles these days. But anyway that’s a situation where I do have very strong views, NZRs idea what the ecology of the game can exist on (being just SR) is more destressing than the thought of what might happen if eligiblity is changed. I’m actually surprised you don’t think NPC and below is already destroyed? Or has it just been too long since it was destroyed to think of what it was before?

Yet another lazy article on this site beating the same drum. Can't professional authors find something else to say?

This policy isn't a “tradition.” It's what keeps our pyramid strong. It's the same policy as Ireland, France and England. Australia has only gone downhill since the Giteau Law was introduced.

The author makes a lazy connection with South Africa. Sure it's worked well in the short term but their winning fifteen had virtually nobody who has come through the system in the seven years since they relaxed their eligibility. We don't know what the long term cost will be. And once the toothpaste is out of the tube we're not going to get it back in.

Seeing the same signs that we saw in SA back when we had the same policy of not selecting OS based players for the Springboks.

First it was 1 or 2 Super Rugby Players and withing 3 years it was not only 1/2 the Springboks literally hundreds of other players from Super Rugby all the way through Currie Cup and down to guys being contracted by OS clubs while still in school.

NZ & Aus are now at the same point SA was when the Springbok players started to turn their backs and take the big money on offer OS.

Richie Mo’unga has been elevating his standards in International rugby since he came out advertising his new found confidence and that he was ready to stand up and perform, producing standout performances against South Africa and Ireland in 2023

Ditto with Shannon Frizell

Richie would have been on the same contract value as others like Damien McKenzie at the time of his Japanese contract negotiations, and struggling with progression in an Ian Foster game plan and missing big Rugby Championship games when taking paternity leave

Dmac has been Super Rugby’s most exceptional player of all time, continually leading multiple disciplines over multiple back to back years. If someone like Scott Roberston would have taken Richie to the next level in international rubgy and deserving of a top contract that could have kept him in the country, then he will be able to do even more with Dmac.

South African URC sides are of a poor standard but are making the most of bringing as much talent through as possible until a new Springbok shines through. They have competitive balance with Irish URC sides that helps drive innovation and standards, despite the continual drop in player standards over the years. It’s exciting for the fan, if not as much for the nuetral anymore.

Super Rugby Pacific is a niche product where the domestic scene is not able to cover expenses, it is all about the sellability of the product and it’s NFL like pedigree

Riche will sit out two international seasons, but if form stays, and All Blacks are still yet to have a back up and competitor to Dmac, he could be signed during his 2nd/3rd (last) season of JRLO and play for the All Blacks immediately after that (for 2 seasons before/including the WC).

All overseas Kiwi’s who are playing international standard should be selected for an All Black team, just not the All Blacks, the midweek team, 2nd team, Maori, a new team, just to ensure standards and know if they are worth resigning

Players playing overseas take an immediate drop in standard and would cost to bring them back up to speed, would they play for free, for the honor of being an All Black? The transition cycle and opening of places is what ABs continual success is driven from.

Rules could be made right now to make all these players eligible from overseas, without a single detriment or causing a loss of further players. The important question therefor is, what’s the point?

Agreed. Let’s talk, yell, & scream. And then do some version of it.