Ben Youngs: 'Anyone removing an Aaron Smith will feel the dent'

Ben Youngs isn’t a sentimental rugby guy. Having quit England on his terms 13 months ago, he will stroll into Allianz Stadium on Saturday to enjoy an afternoon mixing business with pleasure, pressing the flesh as a function while also taking a pew and cheering on Steve Borthwick’s team as an excitable fan.

The 35-year-old walked away from centre stage in Paris last year as his country’s most-capped player of all time, a bronze Rugby World Cup medal dangling from his neck to go with the silver achieved four years earlier in Japan.

Recently retired players often find it difficult to watch from the stands an international team they have invested so much blood, sweat and tears in. Not Youngs. He understood his fringe placing in the pecking order behind Alex Mitchell and Danny Care at France 2023 and was delighted to ultimately sign off with a 127th appearance when named to start the campaign-ending win over Argentina at Stade de France.

It was over and out for him with England on happy terms and rather than have regrets, bear grudges and feel unable to watch the team move on without him, he was at Twickenham in the spring and will be again across their four-game November.

When RugbyPass caught up with Youngs, the opening gambit was how he was handling being an ex-England player. “Good question,” he agreed. “You always think what that transition is going to be like. From playing in Test rugby for so many years and being part of the team to suddenly stepping back and watching it from a fans’ perspective, it has been quite easy.

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“I went to a number of the games last season and watched them and have been watching England continue to play. I still have a lot of friends in that group, I care about the team incredibly deeply but I feel very content with what I did, being able to walk away on my terms and now getting to watch and enjoy it from a fans’ perspective. I am doing a bit of both on Saturday; I’m doing a bit of work but equally I will be watching the game, sitting down, enjoying it and watching as a fan. I’m genuinely excited about the autumn.”

As mentioned, his ties with Borthwick’s England still run deep, none deeper than a certain Dan Cole, his 37-year-old Leicester teammate with whom he now hosts a podcast, For The Love Of Rugby. Youngs is tickled by his pal’s perseverance, tipping his hat to the prop’s patience in the post-2019 World Cup wilderness to make the convincing 2023 return that has him now poised to earn his 117th cap off this weekend’s bench against the All Blacks.

“Myself and Dan with the pod has been lovely. He is an interesting character. The biggest compliment I can give him is he is probably one of the most resilient and stubborn blokes I have ever come across. Physically he has his attributes and while there have been a good few props that are maybe more explosive and maybe cover the ground a little better, they haven’t got that mindset he has, that resilience, that almost stubbornness to keep going and want more and drive himself to improve even more.

“He has been amazing. 2019, the World Cup final, he was left in the wilderness after that. That was the last game he played for about four years which was a long time to mull over that experience, bless him. And then to come back, Steve got him back and look, it speaks wonders of him.

“He is in a situation now where he is holding the fort as such while you are waiting for this next crop of tightheads to come through, which looks likely the way the U20s went. These young props coming through, they are not too far off.”

Youngs signed off with England’s World Cup attacking approach under Borthwick being rather limited. This bluntness was eventually shredded in the spring, the wounding February loss to Scotland proving cathartic as they stuck it to both Ireland and France and showed further signs of creativity in New Zealand last July.

Just one of those four games ended in victory, however, and the near-miss pattern must end. “The next step for Steve and the England team is making sure that we don’t want to be content with being competitive, we want to get on the right side of results now,” reckoned Youngs.

“When I look at England, they will push any team, they will push any team on the day. It’s just making sure that Ireland game, that great game where Marcus (Smith) gets a drop goal at the end, if we can get on the right side of those types of games more often, then we will move forward.

“The week after Ireland, we went to France, lost with the last kick of the game having been in a position where we could have won it. Summer tour, two very tight games. We are very competitive but we have just got to get on the right side of these results now.”

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It was last Monday when Youngs spoke with RugbyPass. At the time, Borthwick hadn’t yet named Ben Spencer as his starting scrum-half ahead of replacement Harry Randall, with Jack van Poortvliet surplus to requirement. What does the record caps holder make of the battle for the No9 England shirt with Mitchell out with injury?

“Alex had such a great rise to international rugby. His form at Northampton has been unbelievable actually. Unfortunate injury and it has opened up the door for other guys to have the opportunity, but Alex has pretty much established himself as England’s No1 nine moving forward certainly.

“While he is away you have a bit of luxury with some of the guys. I’m intrigued to see who they pick, why they go with him and how that unfolds. It’s a good battle for all those guys, and you have the like Raffi Quirke to come back from injury as well. He will put his name in the hat and when we have Alex back, we are suddenly spoilt for choice in that department.”

Youngs wasn’t the only stellar No9 to quit Test rugby at the end of last year’s World Cup. Aaron Smith, the New Zealand talisman, also exited the international game. In the 10 matches the All Blacks have played since then, TJ Perenara has started five, Cortez Ratima three, with Finlay Christie and Cameron Roigard one run each. With Ratima starting against England and Roigard as back up, what has Youngs made of the All Blacks at nine in the post-Smith era?

“I don’t think they are lacking something, it kind of highlights how good Aaron Smith was,” he reasoned. “I know that a lot of people do know that but sometimes when someone is gone you really appreciate what they brought and how good they were and I think he epitomises that.

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“Under (Scott) Robertson it looks like they are doing things and it was a good win against Japan, but anyone that removes an Aaron Smith is going to feel the dent. It’s very similar to France in the Six Nations, losing someone like (Antoine) Dupont. They looked lost at times, he is that much of a figure, and Aaron had that much of a say for New Zealand.

“It is going to take a bit of time. (Richie) Mo’unga isn’t involved. Again, he was an incredible 10. Losing those sorts of guys, it does take its time to pull out the other side but you can’t write the All Blacks off. They are still a well-oiled machine and when they get it right they are very difficult to play against.”

That said, Youngs has predicted an England win this weekend. “Yes, I do. When you look over the history of playing against New Zealand of late, the biggest margin has been 10 points back in 2010. Traditionally they are very tight games.

“The thing that helps the New Zealanders is they are coming in on the back of continuity in having a lot of games under the belt. England players are match-fit and match-sharp but are not cohesive as a team yet. Like, they haven’t played the England way yet and haven’t had that game under their belt.

“But with it being at Allianz Twickenham, there is a special atmosphere when New Zealand come to town and England will have enough. They will get on the right side of the result. I really do believe that.”

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2019: England v New Zealand

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Youngs was twice a winner in this fixture – in 2019 at the World Cup and in 2012 in London – but the near-miss of 2018, when a Sam Underhill try was chalked off at Twickenham by a technicality, was also a highlight. “Best memory? 2019, the semi-final of course. That was a great game but equally the game with Manu (Tuilagi in 2012).

“We were beaten in 2018 in the autumn and although we lost, we really took the game to them and on the back of that, having just lost, we felt we had the game plan and the ability to go and beat them a year later which we ended up doing. Although that was a loss that was an enjoyable game because we felt like it was an intense Test match.”

Unlike Joe Marler’s withering critique, Youngs enjoyed facing the haka. “It’s a privilege to face that, something you grew up watching. It adds to the spectacle and the drama and when you face it, oh man, it’s one of the most iconic rugby moments. When you line up against it, it is a real privilege to be standing there and facing it. It’s great.”

Rugby is certainly different now compared to when Youngs made a 2010 Test debut. For example, the Autumn Nations Series will use a smart ball equipped with Sportable technology and powered by Sage to provide data on every second of a match. The long-time Leicester half-back loves the innovation.

“They have absolutely opened up the vision of the game,” he enthused. “People now get a better understanding of the distance, the heights, all these accuracies, the speed and everything that is done.

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“You are able to get all this instant data which often you weren’t able to get in the past, so that is absolutely critical. It gives people way better insight into why things happen, how it happens, why did he go and win that ball? Well, because it had a hang time of over 3.5 seconds and that has the effect of this.

“Equally as a player, from my perspective that feedback of kicking kicks and knowing that my hang time and distance and getting that instant feedback, that is gold because you can then work out it needs to be here, it needs to be there, it needs to be shorter for certain wingers – I’m not going to name them because they are not as quick as they used to be – and it needs to be a little bit longer for others.

“In sport, you are always looking for that small percentage – and this a genuine difference in per cent because you are getting that data that allows you to then actually use it, transferring it into helping you at the weekend.”

If Youngs could make one special data request to the boffins exploring this technology, what would it be? “Who has the quickest pass in world rugby,” he chuckled. “I’d say it would be Aaron Smith to be fair, just looking at it. But no, one of the biggest stats that would be quite interesting – and I don’t think there is a stat for it yet – is when goal kickers hit the ball, I would love to know the Gs, the force of that action connected to the bottom of the ball.

“That would be quite an interesting stat, what is the actual G-force of someone when they place-kick and hit a ball? Sometimes these long rangers and these guys kicking from 60 metres, you are thinking, ‘How on earth has he done that?’ I would be intrigued to know what the G-force  and the contact at the bottom of a ball is.”

• Sage is the Official Insights Partner of the Autumn Nations Series 2024 and sponsor of the smart ball, driving innovation in rugby through the power of data. For more information, visit www.sage.com/rugby