Dan Carter not the only former All Black first five running out for his club

I think Ntamack was a better player at 21 than Marcus is at 25. I think his game will continue to develop, but I don't think either of them will get very much better. Dan Carter became an incredible game manager as he got older, but he never dominated the opposition more than he did aged 23. Wilkinson pretty indisputably hit his peak at 24. Not everyone is Johnny Sexton, and most players who are touted as prodigies turn out to have peaked young.

"That, or the English game has been slow to develop. I'll let you decide the answer to that one Finn 😉"

no, England have generally looked like a good side when Smith isn't in the team.

"Great job illustrating he's the man to take England to WC 27' though, kinda counter to wanting a 35yo Farrell!"

literally no one is arguing for Farrell.

Defence is a problem, but I don't know what should be done about it. I'd like england to stick with the felix jones system, but its pointless for me to make that claim, given I have no idea whether el-abd is capable of coaching that system. Ultimately I just have to trust him and Borthwick to come up with the best solution.

But I do know enough to say that Marcus is a worse fly-half than Fin and Ford, and that some of the issues with defence would be fixed if they prioritised a more controlled attacking and kicking game over the chaos that Marcus brings and which allows the blitz to be thrown into disarray on the counter.

I'd play Ford or Fin.

Marcus Smith is playing in a much more settled system. Yeah, the defensive system is changing but not as dramatically as it was in the 6N, and the only reason the attacking system would be changing is to adapt it to Smith's weaknesses.

so in the 2023 six nations, England lost both games where Marcus started at 10, which was the games against Scotland and France. The scotland game was poor, but spirited, and the french game was maybe the worst math england have played in almost 30 years. In all 3 games where Marcus didn't start England were pretty good.

The next game he started after that was the loss against Wales in the RWC warmups, which is one of only three games Borthwick has lost against teams currently ranked lower than england.

The next game he's started have been the last 7, so that's two wins against Japan, three losses against NZ, a loss to SA, and a loss to Australia (again, one of borthwicks only losses to teams ranked lower than england).

"I think I understand were you're coming from, and you make a good observation that the 10 has a fair bit to do with how fast a side can play (though what you said was a 'Marcus neutral' statement)"

no, it wasn't a marcus neutral statement.

"Fin could be, but as you've said with Marcus, that would require a lot of change elsewhere in the team 2 years out of a WC"

how? what? why? Fin could slot in easily; its Marcus who requires the team to change around him.

"Marcus will get a 6N to prove himself so to speak"

yes, the 2022 six nations, which was a disaster, just as its been a disaster every other time he's been given the reigns.

is there a debate about whether to persist with ben earl at 8? he's been brilliant there, and if england want someone with more heft in the carry theres always CCS at 6 (and Martin at 5!). idk - maybe Borthwick will end up picking willis instead, but I really don't think he sees Earl at 8 as being a problematic selection.

30k is a really nice stadium size, but it does bring in the conundrum that it loses appeal when the club turns to hard times, and isn't as popular. So 25k might be a nice middle ground. Where a lot of NZ stadiums sit.