England change six, opt to take Farrell out of the firing line

How else did you come to the conclusion that half of the champions cup teams would be french if a UEFA style points system was adopted?

"It would be, because then the top14 will leave the competition because it is not challenging enough"

except that it would make the competition would be more challenging.

But as I pointed out, half the teams wouldn't be French.

"I don't think it would be a disaster if half the teams were from the top14,"

It would be, because then the top14 will leave the competition because it is not challenging enough. There are already some voices in that direction within the top14.

For the Black Lion and the Lusitanos I was pushing a bit, agreed. But I just love watching them and Iwant to give them a path for progression.

"That doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite!"

Coming from you, I think I'll take it as a compliment, thank you.

"But it would increase year on year wouldn't it, because they have entry"

it might, or it might not. Italy spent about 2 decades stagnating in the 6 nations before seeing proper improvement in the past year or two. I definitely agree with having Black Lion in the challenge cup, I just think they should be asked to prove themselves there before making a step further.

That's not quite my idea.

For a 20 team champions cup I'd have 4 teams qualify from the previous years champions cup, and 4 from the previous years challenge cup. For a 16 team champions cup I'd have 3 teams qualify from the previous years champions cup, and 1 from the previous years challenge cup.

"The problem I mainly saw with his idea (much the same as you see, that league finish is a better indicator) is that you could have one of the best candidates lose in the quarters to the eventual champions, and so miss out for someone who got an easier ride, and also finished lower in the league, perhaps in their own league, and who you beat everytime."

If teams get a tough draw in the challenge cup quarters, they should have won more pool games and so got better seeding. My system is less about finding the best teams, and more about finding the teams who perform at the highest level in european competition.

"You mean like the option I suggested like 3 times now?"

I mean the option that you initially suggested, but then disavowed because you didn't like the outcome.

"That will lead to have half of team from top14 and the end of the tournament."

I don't think it would be a disaster if half the teams were from the top14, but that wouldn't actually necessarily be a consequence of the system. We're talking about a UEFA style system. UEFA grant 1/8 champions league places to English premiership sides, but much more than 1 in 8 champions league semi-finalists are English.

"I genuinely disagree with that. I do think it's a decent team and are not doing too badly in the challenge cup."

Black Lion have won 2 and lost 4 in the Challenge Cup group stage in the past 2 seasons. That's not the record of a team that would do well in the Champions cup. They might have some close games, but the likelihood of a win is very low I think.

"Based on the current geopolitics I won't bet on this happening anytime soon 😉"

More's the pity!

Those T2 sides could play a pool or some simple comp with the bottom dwellers (that was actually something else I liked in Jones structure, he left out 2 English sides alltogehter, 4+4-2), and then come into the Challenge Cup when those top4 sides go up?

That idea just helps keep a nice balance for me. I like both comps having exactly the same structure, and raising 4 or so T2 sides requires that to break in some manner.

I'm strongly against Challenge cup semi finalists going to the Champions Cup, I could vaguely agree for the winner but definitely not beyond that.

Neither. You have a situation where like the Stormers lose to la Rochelle in Ro16 but lose out to a lower performing league team in Benneton (5th place v 7th) just because they made it to the semis of Challenge Cup.

"Well that's one starting point for an error in your reasoning. Do you think that in regards to who should have a say in how it's setup in the future as well? Ie you would care what they think or what might be more fair for their teams (not saying your model doesn't allow them a chance)?"

Did you even read what you're replying to? I wasn't arguing for excluding south africa, I was pointing out that the idea of quantifying someone's fractional share of european rugby is entirely nonsensical. You're the one who was trying to do that.

"Yes, I was thinking about an automatic qualifier for a tier 2 side"

What proportion of european rugby are they though? Got to make sure those fractions match up! 😂

"Ultimately what I think would be better for t2 leagues would be a third comp underneath the top two tournemnts where they play a fair chunk of games, like double those two. So half a dozen euro teams along with the 2 SA and bottom bunch of premiership and top14, some Championship and div 2 sides thrown in."

I don't know if Championship sides want to be commuting to Georgia every other week.

"my thought was just to create a middle ground now which can sustain it until that time has come, were I thought yours is more likely to result in the constant change/manipulation it has been victim to"

a middle ground between the current system and a much worse system?

Surely there is scope for a blended, hybrid role now. Remote working/coaching. It's an easier idea post-Lockdown and international rugby isn't usually more than a dozen games per calender year.

It could be huge step backwards for the wallabies if they don't get recruitment right.

I'm strongly against Challenge cup semi finalists going to the Champions Cup, I could vaguely agree for the winner but definitely not beyond that. I.e. why not the winner of the losers cup but not a loser from the losers. Sorry not a big fan of the Challenge cup 😅.

That's a lot of words to say that I was right. If (e.g.) Glasgow won the URC and Edinburgh finished 16th, but Scotland won the six nations, Edinburgh would qualify for the Champions Cup under your system.

"And the reason say another URC (for example) member would get the spot over the other team that won the Challenge Cup, would be because they were arguable better if they finished higher in the League."

They would be arguably worse if they didn't win the Challenge Cup.

"It won't diminish desire to win the Challenge Cup, because that team may still be competing for that seed, and if theyre automatic qual anyway, it still might make them treat it more seriously"

This doesn't make sense. Giving more incentives to do well in the Challenge Cup will make people take it more seriously. My system does that and yours doesn't. Under my system, teams will "compete for the seed" by winning the Challenge Cup, under yours they won't. If a team is automatically qualified anyway why on earth would that make them treat it more seriously?

"I'm promoting the idea of a scheme that never needs to be changed again"

So am I. I'm suggesting that places could be allocated according to a UEFA style points sytem, or according to a system where each league gets 1/4 of the spots, and the remaining 1/4 go to the best performing teams from the previous season in european competition.

"Yours will promote outcry as soon as England (or any other participant) fluctates. Were as it's hard to argue about a the basis of an equal share."

Currently there is an equal share, and you are arguing against it. My system would give each side the opportunity to achieve an equal share, but with more places given to sides and leagues that perform well. This wouldn't promote outcry, it would promote teams to take european competition more seriously. Teams that lose out because they did poorly the previous year wouldn't have any grounds to complain, they would be incentivised to try harder this time around.

"This new system should not be based on the assumption of last years results/performances continuing."

That's not the assumption I'm making. I don't think the teams that perform better should be given places in the competition because they will be the best performing teams next year, but because sport should be based on merit, and teams should be rewarded for performing well.

"I'm specifically promoting my idea because I think it will do exactly what you want, increase european rugyb's importance."

how?

"I won't say I've done anything compressive"

Compressive.

Barrett's irate kicking - a hangover from the ills of SR - is all that stopped them winning the Webb Ellis. I wonder if aule Fozzie would still be so hated?

Either way, I think it's poor to have your successor announced 7 months before the end of your contract.