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Ethan de Groot destroyed France’s tighthead prop Uini Atonio

Ethan de Groot of New Zealand runs with the ball whilst under pressure during the Rugby World Cup France 2023 Pool A match between France and New Zealand at Stade de France on September 08, 2023 in Paris, France. (Photo by Hannah Peters/Getty Images)

I’ll get to Cam Roigard, but I can’t go past Ethan de Groot first.

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I don’t get any of the hand-wringing over de Groot.

I thought he destroyed France’s tighthead prop Uini Atonio, in the All Blacks’ opening Rugby World Cup clash.

I was never much of a school or club rugby player, but I spent a decade playing at tighthead.

Much of it living in fear of destructive looseheads such as de Groot.

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When I was taught to scrummage, destructive was the word for looseheads. Whether they butted you with their heads or bored in on an angle to squeeze your neck and make you butt your own hooker, their aim was to disrupt.

You had your mechanisms to deal with that, such as initiating the head contact yourself or turning in the loosehead’s left shoulder so they hit the deck.

I thought there were times in that France game when the pressure exerted by de Groot was intolerable for Atonio. At those moments it feels as if your head might explode.

I don’t care who thinks de Groot has technical problems or what the referee interpretations are, I just know Atonio was dominated.

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And I was glad to see it. No, thrilled actually.

For too long the All Blacks have been passive scrummagers. Happy to simply try and hold and get the ball to the No.8’s feet as quickly as possible.

They stopped using the scrum as a weapon and were attacked by opponents as a consequence.

We didn’t scrum for penalties either, as many other teams have.

De Groot’s introduction to the team has brought with it a pleasing desire for destruction.

Why does that matter? Well, just ask the loose forwards and halfbacks for starters.

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That gets me to Roigard.

There’s surely no dispute he’s now in New Zealand’s best 23. Whether he starts or comes off the bench, I’m not too bothered.

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I just believe there’s no justification for Finlay Christie continuing to back up Aaron Smith in the games of consequence.

Ultimately, though, it won’t matter if the men such as de Groot don’t play with some grunt.

Not just at scrum time, either, but with ball in hand as well.

I’m tired of seeing good ball go wide and of seeing kicks dinked over the top.

If the All Blacks have any designs on a creditable World Cup campaign, then they have to go through the front door.

That means the forwards carrying hard and often. It means the blindside being utilised and a wing with vigour, such as the continually-impressive Leicester Fainga’anuku, working in tandem with the pack.

This tournament won’t be won with skill. It’s going to take a direct and relentless approach, otherwise Smith and Roigard will simply be left scrambling all day.

Defenders of All Blacks coach Ian Foster will say we don’t have the players. That they’re just not up to elite standard and that the coach can only do so much.

I don’t believe that.

I think success is about intent and tactics and for too long we’ve opted not to impose ourselves, in favour of footy that’s far too frivolous.

De Groot’s intent is plain for all to see and the team won’t succeed if we seek to stifle that.

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Comments

20 Comments
r
rod 439 days ago

Well after this mornings game Moody will be on the plane asap! Lomax probably the best tighthead in the world right now, so will be hard to replace. I’m sure De Groot will have been training the house down the last few weeks and slot into the team for the quarters

M
Michael 450 days ago

Oh, one more thing, it is "that ref" controlling the Italian game. A great test for the ABs to be squeaky clean !!

M
Michael 450 days ago

Stop giving away possession (aimless kicking) and penalties.

How many points have we given away in penalties so far in the RWC?

As a player this frustrates etc.

Anyway, if we keep it together we can beat Ireland and France - some may say "dreams are free" - but if we play intelligently (haven't so far) which means being able to change game plans during the game we can do it.

One more thing, Jordan at full back.

B
Ba 452 days ago

Can't see the ABs going through the front door without Frizzell or Finau - hope Blackadder can match Finau's form and that his body holds up.

But their whole game is not based around this tactic so can't see how they will turn things around - the ABs are notorious for being inflexible and just repeat what they have trained even if it's not working. No space for individuality.

Ireland, on the otherhand, have been training 4 years going through the front door, which is why they will win the WC barring any serious injuries....

C
CO 452 days ago

100%, the French prop got away with not scrummaging. More importantly the Allblacks need to select a pack that can dominate. Frizzell at 8, Ethan at 6 and Dalton at 7 with Jacobson and Savea on the bench a good start along with Whitelock for a 6/2 split with Roigard starting and Smith off the bench with Will Jordan or ALB. Leceister and Telea starting on the wings.

C
Craig 452 days ago

Best piece of rugby journalism I've read in ages...De Groot owned the French tighthead big time... he could not handle the immense pressure Ethan applied...and Roigard will only get better.

G
Greg 452 days ago

You mean tighthead.

J
Jmann 452 days ago

Even though the author is 100% bang on it simply didn't convince the guy with the whistle. The problem is with myopic refs rewarding loose head props in NH scrums. You could clearly see France's NZ-born loosehead pulling back on engage and slipping his bind.

G
Greg 452 days ago

Agreed - Atonio could not stay straight under pressure from De G, so angled in and slipped a shoulder to try and break De G's bind or make him bend a knee. Wily.

E
Emery Ambrose 452 days ago

Great article!!
I'm looking forward the forwards orientated game, maybe we will see it against Italy??
There had to be something of his opposite pulling back a couple times.

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f
fl 21 minutes ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

"Would I'd be think"

Would I'd be think.


"Well that's one starting point for an error in your reasoning. Do you think that in regards to who should have a say in how it's setup in the future as well? Ie you would care what they think or what might be more fair for their teams (not saying your model doesn't allow them a chance)?"

Did you even read what you're replying to? I wasn't arguing for excluding south africa, I was pointing out that the idea of quantifying someone's fractional share of european rugby is entirely nonsensical. You're the one who was trying to do that.


"Yes, I was thinking about an automatic qualifier for a tier 2 side"

What proportion of european rugby are they though? Got to make sure those fractions match up! 😂


"Ultimately what I think would be better for t2 leagues would be a third comp underneath the top two tournemnts where they play a fair chunk of games, like double those two. So half a dozen euro teams along with the 2 SA and bottom bunch of premiership and top14, some Championship and div 2 sides thrown in."

I don't know if Championship sides want to be commuting to Georgia every other week.


"my thought was just to create a middle ground now which can sustain it until that time has come, were I thought yours is more likely to result in the constant change/manipulation it has been victim to"

a middle ground between the current system and a much worse system?

46 Go to comments
f
fl 36 minutes ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

"Huh? You mean last in their (4 team) pools/regions? My idea was 6/5/4, 6 the max, for guarenteed spots, with a 20 team comp max, so upto 5 WCs (which you'd make/or would be theoretically impossible to go to one league (they'd likely be solely for its participants, say 'Wales', rather than URC specifically. Preferrably). I gave 3 WC ideas for a 18 team comp, so the max URC could have (with a member union or club/team, winning all of the 6N, and Champions and Challenge Cup) would be 9."


That's a lot of words to say that I was right. If (e.g.) Glasgow won the URC and Edinburgh finished 16th, but Scotland won the six nations, Edinburgh would qualify for the Champions Cup under your system.


"And the reason say another URC (for example) member would get the spot over the other team that won the Challenge Cup, would be because they were arguable better if they finished higher in the League."

They would be arguably worse if they didn't win the Challenge Cup.


"It won't diminish desire to win the Challenge Cup, because that team may still be competing for that seed, and if theyre automatic qual anyway, it still might make them treat it more seriously"

This doesn't make sense. Giving more incentives to do well in the Challenge Cup will make people take it more seriously. My system does that and yours doesn't. Under my system, teams will "compete for the seed" by winning the Challenge Cup, under yours they won't. If a team is automatically qualified anyway why on earth would that make them treat it more seriously?


"I'm promoting the idea of a scheme that never needs to be changed again"

So am I. I'm suggesting that places could be allocated according to a UEFA style points sytem, or according to a system where each league gets 1/4 of the spots, and the remaining 1/4 go to the best performing teams from the previous season in european competition.


"Yours will promote outcry as soon as England (or any other participant) fluctates. Were as it's hard to argue about a the basis of an equal share."

Currently there is an equal share, and you are arguing against it. My system would give each side the opportunity to achieve an equal share, but with more places given to sides and leagues that perform well. This wouldn't promote outcry, it would promote teams to take european competition more seriously. Teams that lose out because they did poorly the previous year wouldn't have any grounds to complain, they would be incentivised to try harder this time around.


"This new system should not be based on the assumption of last years results/performances continuing."

That's not the assumption I'm making. I don't think the teams that perform better should be given places in the competition because they will be the best performing teams next year, but because sport should be based on merit, and teams should be rewarded for performing well.


"I'm specifically promoting my idea because I think it will do exactly what you want, increase european rugyb's importance."

how?


"I won't say I've done anything compressive"

Compressive.

46 Go to comments
J
JW 39 minutes ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

Generally disagree with what? The possibility that they would get whitewashed, or the idea they shouldn't gain access until they're good enough?


I think the first is a fairly irrelevant view, decide on the second and then worry about the first. Personally I'd have had them in a third lvl comp with all the bottom dwellers of the leagues. I liked the idea of those league clubs resting their best players, and so being able to lift their standards in the league, though, so not against the idea that T2 sides go straight into Challenge Cup, but that will be a higher level with smaller comps and I think a bit too much for them (not having followed any of their games/performances mind you).

Because I don't think that having the possibility of a team finishing outside the quarter finals to qualify automatically will be a good idea. I'd rather have a team finishing 5th in their domestic league.

fl's idea, if I can speak for him to speed things up, was for it to be semifinalists first, Champions Cup (any that somehow didn't make a league semi), then Challenge's semi finalists (which would most certainly have been outside their league semi's you'd think), then perhaps the quarter finalists of each in the same manner. I don't think he was suggesting whoever next performed best in Europe but didn't make those knockouts (like those round of 16 losers), I doubt that would ever happen.


The problem I mainly saw with his idea (much the same as you see, that league finish is a better indicator) is that you could have one of the best candidates lose in the quarters to the eventual champions, and so miss out for someone who got an easier ride, and also finished lower in the league, perhaps in their own league, and who you beat everytime.

46 Go to comments
J
JW 57 minutes ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

Well I was mainly referring to my thinking about the split, which was essentially each /3 rounded up, but reliant on WCs to add buffer.


You may have been going for just a 16 team league ranking cup?


But yes, those were just ideas for how to select WCs, all very arbitrary but I think more interesting in ways than just going down a list (say like fl's) of who is next in line. Indeed in my reply to you I hinted at say the 'URC' WC spot actually being given to the Ireland pool and taken away from the Welsh pool.


It's easy to think that is excluding, and making it even harder on, a poor performing country, but this is all in context of a 18 or 20 team comp where URC (at least to those teams in the URC) got 6 places, which Wales has one side lingering around, and you'd expect should make. Imagine the spice in that 6N game with Italy, or any other of the URC members though! Everyone talks about SA joining the 6N, so not sure it will be a problem, but it would be a fairly minor one imo.


But that's a structure of the leagues were instead of thinking how to get in at the top, I started from the bottom and thought that it best those teams doing qualify for anything. Then I thought the two comps should be identical in structure. So that's were an even split comes in with creating numbers, and the 'UEFA' model you suggest using in some manner, I thought could be used for the WC's (5 in my 20 team comp) instead of those ideas of mine you pointed out.


I see Jones has waded in like his normal self when it comes to SH teams. One thing I really like about his idea is the name change to the two competitions, to Cup and Shield. Oh, and home and away matches.

46 Go to comments
f
fl 1 hour ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

"Yes I was the one who suggested to use a UEFA style point. And I guessed, that based on the last 5 years we should start with 6 top14, 6 URC and 4 Prem."

Yes I am aware that you suggested it, but you then went on to say that we should initially start with a balance that clearly wasn't derived from that system. I'm not a mind reader, so how was I to work out that you'd arrived at that balance by dint of completely having failed to remember the history of the competition.


"Again, I was the one suggesting that, but you didn't like the outcome of that."

I have no issues with the outcome of that, I had an issue with a completely random allocation of teams that you plucked out of thin air.

Interestingly its you who now seem to be renouncing the UEFA style points system, because you don't like the outcome of reducing URC representation.


"4 teams for Top14, URC and Prem, 3 teams for other leagues and the last winner, what do you think?"

What about 4 each + 4 to the best performing teams in last years competition not to have otherwise qualified? Or what about a UEFA style system where places are allocated to leagues on the basis of their performance in previous years' competitions?

There's no point including Black Lion if they're just going to get whitewashed every year, which I think would be a possibility. At most I'd support 1 team from the Rugby Europe Super Cup, or the Russian Championship being included. Maybe the best placed non-Israeli team and the Russian winners could play off every year for the spot? But honestly I think its best if they stay limited to the Challenge Cup for now.

46 Go to comments
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