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New Zealand's expectations of the All Blacks are too high
As I write this England is yet to play the Netherlands, in the semifinals of the Euro 2024 football competition.
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I’ve been thinking about that team in relation to the way we talk about and treat the All Blacks.
England’s Euros campaign hasn’t been a brilliant one, which has created two conflicting narratives.
One, is that they’re still in the tournament and should be praised for that. No, the quality of their football hasn’t reached the heights anticipated, but it’s only winning that counts.
The other is that they’re rubbish. An embarrassment.
Manager Gareth Southgate is incompetent and the players a shadow of their club-football-selves.
That’s a theme that’s been taken up by former players, pundits, media and fans.
They all expect, or expected, better and have been very forthright in saying so.
One or two players have also bitten back at that criticism, during the pool and now knockout phase of the tournament.
Personally, I like that.
I applaud the fact that people have been unafraid to voice their displeasure and that players have responded, rather than default to the usual lie about disregarding or being entirely ignorant of opinions from beyond their bubble.
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I think All Blacks rugby would be enhanced by similar critiques from all and sundry.
Putting players and teams on pedestals is pathetic, quite frankly.
But that’s a side issue.
What’s really struck me here – as I seek to compare England’s footballers with our All Blacks – is the wild levels of expectation.
As I sit here, I think the All Blacks should beat England’s rugby team by 20 points, in Auckland on Saturday night. Just as I thought they would’ve beaten them by plenty in Dunedin last week.
That’s made me wonder if, like those associated with English football, we entirely over rate our players and are chronically ignorant and dismissive of opponents.
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I’d wager most of us are not aficionados of English Premiership Rugby.
We watch Super Rugby Pacific and see our better players run rings around, often token, opposition and assume they should do the same against every team they meet.
We look at what works at a franchise level and presume it’ll be sufficient to pummel test opponents as well.
I’ve always worked on the principle that excellence is the benchmark for All Black teams.
That not only should the team aspire to that, they should reach it on a regular basis.
Any less and we descend forever into the mire of mediocrity.
But as I watched the All Blacks make incredibly hard work of beating England 16-15 last week, I couldn’t escape the feeling that some of these players just aren’t that good.
Or at least not as good as we imagine they are or hope them to be.
Does the continued adherence to a game plan many of us feel doesn’t work indicate a failing of successive coaching staffs? Or is it simply the best they can do with what they’ve got?
I was appalled at how the All Blacks attempted to play in Dunedin, but is that because my expectations are entirely out of whack?
I genuinely don’t know.
Hopefully we’ll get an answer as Scott Robertson’s coaching tenure continues.
In the meantime, there’s nothing wrong with us voicing our displeasure at performances. If that motivates players to jam those words down our throats – as appears to have happened with England’s football team – then we’ll all be better for it.
No Gardise, Ramm, Hutcinson, Parland, Lockett, and I think you missed a loosy.
Count them Ed, 6. JD said 16/23? That a generous 7 players he said played that Bristol game that missed the playoffs (I’m presuming for your benefit here that none of them werent injured first choice players). Using youre facts I’m telling you there were only 6.
And they lost. To a team that a weak SR team without 9 of it’s season best players beat
Well if you want to equate finishing top half Tin the English league with 9th out of 12th in SRP, below all the other kiwi teams, the Fijian team and most of the Aussie teams be my guest…
No the Brumbies and the Reds are good teams, English Premiership semi final level at the very least. The weak Aussie teams are the Rebels, who the Crusaders embarrassingly finished behind, the Force and the Tahs.
Anyway, very encouraging performances by both England and NZ this weekend. Lots of development left for both sides.
Ah, I see. So what you’re saying is miss out on the English play offs and you’re a ‘strong team’ but miss out on the srp play offs and you’re a weak team. Ok, gotcha…
And I presume the Brumbies, who lost the same 2 games as the winners are also a ‘weak aussie team’? And are the Chiefs, Highlanders and crusaders weak kiwi teams since they lost way more games than the Brumbies?
That was the quarters against weak Aussie teams
So two points and one place from play off qualification in srp was 9th place. From 12. What do you call that from crusaders, a respectable season??
Two points and one place off the semi final isn't “obscurity”
Anyway enjoy the match 💥
I guess you say top half when you’re used to most of your league qualifying for the playoffs so probably makes sense to you. Over here mid table is also known as mid table obscurity and goes nowhere. These teams are just not rated as strong. But hey, boring old world if we were all the same…
Yes, I replied to him. Ok strong was the wrong word and we all know how much Bristol underachieved up to the end of last year considering their riches. That doesn't negate the facts that they are a top half team and lost to our worst and that the Crusaders were on the other side of the world in their second preseason hit out. He himself said that he expected Bristol to win the game.
It's exactly as I said. 16/23 the same players, with a lot of the bench and starters swapped. Weakened, but not a B team which is what you claimed. And as I said the Bristol team were missing quite a few from their top 23, mainly on the bench.
I also pointed out that as well as beating the top team they beat second and third in a run of six wins. One loss doesn't negate that when all the others lost more.
You also didn't address my point that claiming they were never genuine contenders was nonsense.
However much you harp on about a cherry picked detail, the bottom line is that our worst team beat a top half English team when Bristol was at home and in mid season while the Crusaders were playing on the other side of the world in their second preseason hit out.
Ps have you seen the posts above from the Bristol FAN giving his views, or do they not count either because you know better…???
Really? Ok let’s look at the facts because whatever you’ve been looking at it ain’t that!
Here’s the saints team Bristol beat:
Number15,
HendyGarside 60', substituted for Garside at 60 minutes
Number14,
Ramm
Number13,
OdendaalLitchfield 74', substituted for Litchfield at 74 minutes
Number12,
HutchinsonDingwall 53', substituted for Dingwall at 53 minutes
Number11,
Sleightholme
Number10,
Smith
Number9,
McParland
Number1,
IyogunWaller 62', substituted for Waller at 62 minutes
Number2,
MatavesiLangdon 53', substituted for Langdon at 53 minutes
Number3,
Davison
Number4,
MayanavanuaLockett 62', substituted for Lockett at 62 minutes
Number5,
Coles
Number6,
Lawes
Number7,
Ludlam 51', Yellow card at 51 minutes
Number8,
GrahamAugustus 56'
And here’s the saints team that played the final:
15,
Furbank
Number
14,
Freeman
Number
13,
Odendaal
Hendy 44', substituted for Hendy at 44 minutes
Number
12,
Dingwall
Number
11,
Sleightholme
Number
10,
Smith
James 71', substituted for James at 71 minutes
Number
9,
Mitchell
Number
1,
Waller
Iyogun 52', substituted for Iyogun at 52 minutes
Number
2,
Langdon
Matavesi 57', substituted for Matavesi at 57 minutes
Number
3,
Davison
Millar Mills 57', substituted for Millar Mills at 57 minutes
Number
4,
Moon
Mayanavanua 71', substituted for Mayanavanua at 71 minutes
Number
5,
Coles
Number
6,
Lawes
Number
7,
Pearson
Ludlam 61', substituted for Ludlam at 61 minutes
Number
8,
Augustus
Graham 67'
So, you tell me how these compare because it sure isn’t what you stated above!!!
It wasn't a B team at all, don't talk nonsense. I get that a lot of the starters and bench swapped but 16/23 played in the final, including most of the internationals. Bristol were missing a similar number, especially on the bench. And were the other finalists Bath selecting a B team too? The third placed Sale? All the other teams they beat? And you keep going on about the one they lost when everyone else lost more.
They were never genuine contenders? When on a 6 match run and only two more wins needed? The English I know certainly thought they were and nobody wanted their team to face them in the final. Don't try to blag me.
Let's just pretend that everything you said is true. We still have a team from the top half of your table losing at home, in the middle of the season, losing to our worst team, in their second preseason hit out, on the other side of the world.
I suggested pre match that the first game would be very close and most Kiwis on here laughed at me, themselves predicting a cricket score and accused me of arrogance for having the audacity to suggest England would be competitive… so take that as you will…
Not the response I got to my article predicting close matches. Google “JD kiwi” and select the first article, with a photo of Razor in a press conference.
Again, just not true. Your spurious claim prompted me to check the detail (that I already knew intuitively) and if you do the same, rather than simply extrapolate claims from the headline result, you’ll see that the saints team well beaten by Bristol at home was nothing like the team that started the play offs and final series. So yeah, ok, they beat a B team. At home. So what?
Semantics irrelevant. Bristol were a real poor team in recent seasons that hit a good patch of form. They were never seriously rated by any informed view over here as likely, or even genuine contenders, to make the playoffs. Far less win the league. Period. But hey, if you know better than the experts that have been there, seen it and done it…
My honest opinion of the AB’s
Yes there is way too much expectation from them. But what makes matters worse is that they don’t really learn from their mistakes. If you look at their dominant period. They had a very strong pack and amazing backs. Then they wanted to evolve and play even faster. And it was from that point when things started going downwards. My point im trying make is they had a perfect game plan, all they have to do is revert back to the style that won them 2 consecutive World Cup’s. But im afraid that wouldn’t happen as the AB’s don’t have the cattle and kiwi’s want to watch Champagne rugby, unfortunately Champagne rugby doesn’t always win you games
That’s a good summation, and you’re right, when the did revert back to that simple gameplan come RWC23 it wasn’t enough to get across the line.
Were hoping Razor is the Messiah and he’ll find that balance you’re speaking of.
The expectations of the All Blacks are high well because they have won at such a high percentage outside world cups in the past but rugby isn't as it was and no team is truly dominant for long at the moment. The AB’s are rebuilding after the loss of a whole lot of experience and leadership in the group. The expectations are too high right now from fans but that's always the case.
The expectations are high because of the noise razor made and then you see his picks there’s no change at all in what he wasn’t to do from he last era
The current athletes in the all blacks are as capable of a 20+ win over any side in the world as their predecessors were.
Just because they are capable doesn’t mean they will.
That’s all part of the fun.
There isn’t any harm in expecting excellence and demanding it of your team.
It’s all in how you word it…
wow what a comments section, NZ have a lot of talent but are not as strong as 10 years ago during the peak of the golden generation. In 80 minutes of rugby any of the top 5 teams can beat each other to suggest otherwise is arrogance personified. It was a good game on Saturday with 2 teams trying to play an attractive style of rugby and both teams able to make significant improvements this week, just enjoy the quality of the rugby and respect the opposition instead of assuming you will win by 20+
I don't see too many people predicting a 20 point win. It's a small minority.
If you want to see how we simultaneously expect the All Blacks to win every test AND respect the opposition check out this week's Aotearoa podcast. Total respect and understanding that the likes of England could beat us, yet still predicting a 100% season… while at the same time knowing it's unlikely to happen. I know it seems contradictory but the high expectations lead to high standards so it works for us.
When NZ are head and shoulders above everyone else you can demand impossibly high standards. When others catch up though the recriminations become damaging. How you deal with defeat is also a standard to aspire too. For me as an Irish supporter, the result of the NZ series didnt shatter the allure of the ABs. The immediate hostile reaction of NZ, culminating in abuse to fellow international players and their supporters after a RWC quarter -- this showed us that the humble AB persona was a con. NZ could have kept the AB allure. They chose instead to fire it out of their pram with their toys.
ABs are not really a thing in Europe any more. Looking forward to playing NZ in the Autumn in Dublin.
“ABs are not really a thing in Europe anymore” - do you even believe the nonsense you write Turlough? If that’s the case, then the arrogance and entitlement you falsely accuse us of is absolutely rife over there.
It must be refreshing coming to a Kiwi thread and not getting abused like you do on the Saffa ones but you’re absolutely off your head as per usual.
100% spot on. All you have to do is beat them at a game, then the real colours shines through. Although some kiwis are really nice people, but the majority of them are scumbags just like most of us. After their loss in the final, everyone and everything got blamed, but not one word was said about the 6 point they left out there by missing their goal kicks, or the fact that they had the worst discipline at the WC
If that’s true the only person that’s noticed is you.
Bidwell’s articles always seem to bring out the worst in people. And this was very mild by his standards!
Don't forget how classless the likes of POM and Sexton were in victory in 2022. That was always going to get a reaction and the receipts were cashed by the All Blacks in the one that really mattered. It was so foolish to give quality opposition extra motivation and focus when the big battle was yet to come.
Anyway, Ireland did us a huge favour by ruthlessly and brilliantly exposing our weaknesses and making clear exactly what we needed to improve. We reacted to the defeat by making some overdue changes and it worked out pretty well for us considering how average we'd been under Foster.
Now that Sexton's gone and POM’s going hopefully we'll get back to the natural state of the kiwis and Irish getting on well. You post lots of good stuff on here mate, I'd much rather talk about the rugby.
Guess what happens when you lower expectations. The ABs have always represented the best of our country and Im not lowering my expectations
Nor I Bruiser. Expectation makes our teams strive harder to meet them i am disappointed that Irish fans took umbrage at losing World Cup QF because we deserved to on the day despite others may have said or done. The English fans are critical of our first test since the RUGBY WORLD CUP Final narrowly lost with a whole new team and coaching staff so are just hoping this week is our chance to show a far greater improvement from our first offering in many months since RWC final. I”m reckoning that should we win again in the GARDEN OF EDEN that England will respect the improvement shown with the series won in eight days!
With more excellent teams around there will inevitably be more losses. If the NZ rugby team represent the best of your country then demand they act with honour and humility in victory and defeat.