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The Premiership's Champions Cup annus horribilis - why?

Harlequins and England prop Joe Marler

The ink was barely dry on the quarter-final match-ups of the Champions Cup this past weekend before the public dissection of the Premiership’s annus horribilis in the competition began.

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With Saracens the sole team from England making it out of the pool phase, it is the first time since the 2011/12 season that the Premiership has not had multiple representatives in the knockout rounds of the top tier European tournament.

Predictably, the threat of relegation has been floated as one reason for the Premiership clubs’ struggles and that has thrown petrol on the already blazing fire of potentially ring-fencing the competition.

There is merit to that idea, especially with an enlarged, two-conference format, also including Bristol and Yorkshire Carnegie, but the idea that it will bring about improved fortunes in European competition is a stretch.

Let’s be honest, no English side went into the Champions Cup this season fearing relegation. There were no conscious thoughts in the opening two rounds from Premiership directors of rugby of resting players in Europe so that they were better prepared for the Premiership.

In the Challenge Cup? Sure.

In the Champions Cup? No chance.

Admittedly, as the tournament progressed, Northampton Saints found themselves in an alarming position in the Premiership and, perhaps, thoughts of a relegation battle entered their mind over the last two rounds of European rugby, but the reality is they were eliminated from the competition before that, in the third round, when they lost at home to the Ospreys, on the back of a thumping at home to Saracens and a loss away at Clermont.

Credit should actually be given to Saints for rousing themselves in round five of the competition and beating Clermont at Franklin’s Gardens, but regardless, they are the only side who can use the spectre of relegation as any kind of mitigating factor this season.

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Harlequins and Leicester Tigers both currently sit 22 points above bottom-placed side London Irish in the Premiership table, whilst Saracens, Exeter Chiefs, Wasps and Bath are all in the top five and competing for playoff spots come the conclusion of the regular season.

The scrapping of relegation is not going to change the approaches of teams battling it out in the top half of the table. They are still going to pick strong teams in the Premiership, with the intent of making it into the playoffs with as favourable seeding as possible.

Scrapping relegation is a solution if you believe the developmental nature of the Challenge Cup – I don’t – is a problem.

To be honest, even that isn’t a primary motivation behind scrapping relegation.

The desire for improved financial security of the established Premiership clubs is the driving force.

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So, if the threat of relegation didn’t bring about this near no show for the English sides in the knockout rounds, what did?

The playing time of England internationals, following a British and Irish Lions year where the invitational side leant heavily on them, has also been mooted, with terms like burnout and flogged being bandied about.

There’s no doubt that the likes of Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Owen Farrell, Jonathan Joseph and Anthony Watson have all played a lot of rugby over the last 18 months, but if you look individually at their performances in the Champions Cup, have they underperformed?

Maybe Itoje has been a little quieter for Saracens in their matches than he was in last season’s competition, something which could be attributed to an early season injury, but both Vunipola and Farrell have been consistently high class. Cole and Lawes have stood up strongly in teams that have been outclassed this season and both Joseph and Watson enjoyed good campaigns with Bath.

They have played too many games and the management of their workloads, which had looked to be improving in recent seasons under the new club-country agreement, has certainly taken a backward step in a Lions year, but again, that has not looked to be a significant factor in the Premiership sides’ European shortcomings. The key players stood up throughout the pool stage.

Farrell certainly hasn’t been flagging from a year of non-stop rugby

Rugby fans. We’re a reactionary bunch, you know.

Back in the 2015/16 season, five English clubs made it to the quarter-finals. They were joined by three French clubs. There was no Guinness PRO12 representation.

It was, apparently, the beginning of the end for the Celtic sides in Europe.

Fast-forward two seasons and there are three, now PRO14, Celtic sides in the knockouts, with Leinster in tremendous form and arguably favourites for the trophy and both Munster and Scarlets have winnable, home quarter-finals.

Things change quickly in rugby.

Is there really more at play here, this season, than the Premiership clubs simply being beaten by savvier and, on the day, better opponents?

Just one team in the quarter-finals is of course a poor return for the Premiership but look closer at the fortunes of each of the seven entrants this season and the picture is far less gloomy.

Saracens are in the quarter-finals despite enduring a run of bad form that was the worst the club had seen for over a decade. That is pretty remarkable, and they now, to the annoyance of Leinster, look to be finding their groove once more.

As for Wasps, Bath and Exeter, they were all in with a shout of qualifying in the final round of pool games.

Exeter lost their double-header with Leinster – hardly damning given the form of the Dubliners – which put them in a hole, but their destiny was still in their own hands going into the final match of their pool with Glasgow. They were comfortably outplayed by a Stuart Hogg-inspired Warriors side.

Fair enough. Glasgow have been doing that – even without Hogg – to sides in the PRO14 all season.

Bath had a good run and can feel unlucky. They did the double over Benneton, beat Scarlets away from home and saw off Toulon in Bath. Aside from their home fixture with the Scarlets, they played well in their five remaining pool games and though they will rue not getting a try bonus point at home to Benneton and narrowly losing at the Stade Mayol, two factors which, had they been reversed, would not only have seen Bath qualify, but also qualify with a home quarter-final.

It’s a game of inches and Bath fell just short, but they can certainly be proud of their efforts.

Wasps had a similar campaign to Bath, really. When Bath lost at home to Scarlets in round five, Wasps fell short at the Stoop against Harlequins, a game which everyone had Wasps slated to win and go forth from as a strong candidate to fill one of the eight knockout berths.

With Quins missing plenty of first team players in that fixture through a mix of injury, suspension or rotation, it’s a game you would have backed Wasps to win eight or nine times out of 10.

Admittedly, Quins, Leicester and Northampton had European seasons to forget, but Wasps, Bath and Exeter were all there, right on the cusp of qualification.

The bounce of Anthony Belleau’s grubber at the Mayol against Bath or Danny Care turning into some sort of Aaron Smith-TJ Perenara hybrid for 80 minutes in January. These were the microscopic – relative to an entire six-game pool stage – differences which cost them qualification.

And little errors.

Whether they were tactically outthought, lost focus for brief periods or approached games in the wrong way, it all combined to be enough to see them just miss out on the quarter-finals.

From Bath and Exeter trying to overpower and outmuscle Scarlets and Leinster respectively, to Wasps going through the motions against Quins, these are all things which can be tweaked and rectified. They are not systemic issues relating to the Premiership, it’s structure or perceived benefits the Celtic nations may have from central contracting.

There is no reason why those three sides can’t be in the quarter-finals at this stage of next season.

Quins, too, will be a stronger outfit next season as they evolve

See. React. Blame.

It’s a horrible yearly cycle that follows the conclusion of the pool stage, but thankfully one which will not be going on at those clubs, or any of the other sides that failed to qualify for the knockout rounds this year.

Those directors of rugby and coaches will be looking at ways they can ensure this doesn’t happen next season, rather than coming up with excuses.

Is our recruitment balance, between improving the first XV and bolstering squad depth, right?

Tactically, how could we have been better prepared for our opponents?

How can we make our players more adaptable to the differing interpretations of the laws that we will see from cross-competition referees?

If our players were flagging, which Premiership games can we target for them to be rested in and hand our academy players valuable playing time?

Or, should we allow our players a longer offseason than the five-week mandatory period written into their contracts?

There is no reason why the Premiership clubs can’t come back from this season with renewed vigour in Europe in 2018/19. After all, that’s exactly what the PRO14 sides did after their very own annus horribilis during the 2015/16 season.

Just please, stop the excuses, apportioning of blame and agenda-driving.

After all, pool stage exits, relegations and disappointing seasons, all they are are opportunities to re-evaluate and then rebuild something more impressive than what came before.

Take this as the opportunity it is.

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I
IkeaBoy 2 hours ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

“Why are you so insistent on being wrong? Man United won in 2008 (beating Chelsea in the final). In 2009 Barcelona won, beating United.”

Good lad, just checking. So you’re not a bot! Chelsea bombed the 2008 final more than United won it. John Terry… couldn’t happen to a nicer fella.


“The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.”

Again - you’re not correct. City won the CL in 2023, and made the final in 2021. Those are the only two CL finals they have made.”

So the difference between 2021 and 2023 would of course be TWO YEARS. 24 months would account for 3 different seasons. They contested ECL finals twice in two years. The first in 2021 - which they lost - was still the first elite European final in the clubs then 141 year history. Explain clearly how that’s not an achievement? Guess what age he was then…


“I think your take on Gatland is pretty silly. Gatland was without Edwards in the 2013 and 2017 Lions tours and managed to do alright.”

I thought you don’t care what certain managers did 10 years ago…

Why would I address Eddie Jones? Why would he be deserving of a single sentence?


“I am aware Les Kiss has achieved great things in his career, but I don’t care what he did over ten years ago. Rugby was a different sport back then.”

So you haven’t watched even a minute of Super Rugby this year?


“lol u really need to chill out”

Simply frightful! If you’re not a bot you’re at least Gen-Z?

171 Go to comments
f
fl 3 hours ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

“Pep didn’t win the ECL in 2009. It was 2008 with Barca”

Why are you so insistent on being wrong? Man United won in 2008 (beating Chelsea in the final). In 2009 Barcelona won, beating United.


“The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.”

Again - you’re not correct. City won the CL in 2023, and made the final in 2021. Those are the only two CL finals they have made. With Barcelona, Pep made the semi final four consecutive times - with City he’s managed only 3 in 8 years. This year they didn’t even make the round of 16.


To re-cap, you wrote that Pep “has gotten better with age. By every measure.” There are some measures that support what you’re saying, but the vast majority of the measures that you have highlighted actually show the opposite.


I am aware Les Kiss has achieved great things in his career, but I don’t care what he did over ten years ago. Rugby was a different sport back then.


I think your take on Gatland is pretty silly. Gatland was without Edwards in the 2013 and 2017 Lions tours and managed to do alright. You’ve also not addressed Eddie Jones.


I agree wrt Schmidt. He would ideally be retained, but it wouldn’t work to have a remote head coach. He should definitely be hired as a consultant/analyst/selector though.


“Look at the talent that would be discarded in Schmidt and Kiss if your age Nazism was applied.”

lol u really need to chill out lad. Kiss and Schmidt would both be great members of the coaching set up in 2025, but it would be ridiculous to bank on either to retain the head coach role until 2031.

171 Go to comments
I
IkeaBoy 3 hours ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

Pep didn’t win the ECL in 2009. It was 2008 with Barca. The gap between wins ignores the finals contested. 2 in 2 years with his City Triumph. The most recent put him in the elite company of managers to have won it with multiple clubs. Yet more late career success and history.


His time with City - a lower win ratio compared to Bayern Munich as you say - includes a 100 PT season. A feat that will likely never be surpassed. I appreciate you don’t follow soccer too closely but even casual fans refer to the sport in ‘pre and post Pep’ terms and all because of what he has achieved and is continuing to achieve, late career. There is a reason that even U10’s play out from the back now at every level of the game. That’s also a fairly recent development.


How refreshing to return to rugby on a rugby forum.


Ireland won a long over due slam in 2009. The last embers of a golden generation was kicked on by a handful of young new players and a new senior coach. Kiss was brought in as defence coach and was the reason they won it. They’d the best defence in the game at the time. He all but invented the choke tackle. Fittingly they backed it up in the next world cup in their 2011 pool match against… Australia. The instantly iconic image of Will Genia getting rag-dolled by Stephen Ferris.


His career since has even included director of rugby positions. He would have an extremely good idea of where the game is at and where it is going in addition to governance experience and dealings. Not least in Oz were many of the players will have come via or across Rugby League pathways.


Gatland isn’t a valid coach to compare too. He only ever over-achieved and was barely schools level without Shaun Edwards at club or test level. His return to Wales simply exposed his limitations and a chaotic union. It wasn’t age.


Schmidt is open to staying involved in a remote capacity which I think deserves more attention. It would be a brain drain to lose him. He stepped in to coach the ABs in the first 2022 test against Ireland when Foster was laid out with Covid. They mullered Ireland 42-19. He was still heavily involved in the RWC 2023 quarter final. Same story.


Look at the talent that would be discarded in Schmidt and Kiss if your age Nazism was applied.

171 Go to comments
f
fl 5 hours ago
Why Les Kiss and Stuart Lancaster can lead Australia to glory

“He won a ECL and a domestic treble at the beginning of his career.”

He won 2 ECLs at the beginning of his career (2009, 2011). Since then he’s won 1 in 15 years.


“He then won 3 leagues on the bounce later in his career”

He won 3 leagues on the bounce at the start of his career too - (2009, 2010, 2011).


If we’re judging him by champions league wins, he peaked in his late 30s, early 40s. If we’re judging him by domestic titles he’s stayed pretty consistent over his career. If we’re judging him by overall win rate he peaked at Bayern, and was better at Barcelona than at City. So no, he hasn’t gotten better by every measure.


“You mentioned coaches were older around the mid-2010’s compared to the mid-2000’s. Robson was well above the average age you’ve given for those periods even in the 90’s when in his pomp.”

Robson was 63-64 when he was at Barcelona, so he wasn’t very old. But yeah, he was slightly above the average age of 60 I gave for the top 4 premier league coaches in 2015, and quite a bit above the averages for 2005 and 2025.


“Also, comparing coaches - and their experiences, achievements - at different ages is unstable. It’s not a valid way to compare and tends to torpedo your own logic when you do compare them on equal terms. I can see why you don’t like doing it.”

Well my logic certainly hasn’t been torpedoed. Currently the most successful premier league coaches right now are younger than they were ten years ago. You can throw all the nuance at it that you want, but that fact won’t change. It’s not even clear what comparing managers “on equal terms” would even mean, or why it would be relevant to anything I’ve said.


“You still haven’t answered why Kiss could be a risker appointment?”

Because I’ve been talking to you about football managers. If you want to change the subject then great - I care a lot more about rugby than I do football.

But wrt Kiss, I don’t agree that 25 years experience is actually that useful, given what a different sport rugby was 25 years ago. Obviously in theory more experience can never be a bad thing, but I think 10 years of coaching experience is actually more than enough these days. Erasmus had been a coach for 13 years when he got the SA top job. Andy Farrell had been a coach for 9 when he got the Ireland job. I don’t think anyone would say that either of them were lacking in experience.


Now - what about coaches who do have 25+ years experience? The clearest example of that would be Eddie Jones, who started coaching 31 years ago. He did pretty well everywhere he worked until around 2021 (when he was 61), when results with England hit a sharp decline. He similarly oversaw a terrible run with Australia, and currently isn’t doing a great job with Japan.

Another example is Warren Gatland, who also started coaching full-time 31 years ago, after 5 years as a player-coach. Gatland did pretty well everywhere he went until 2020 (when he was 56), when he did a relatively poor job with the Chiefs, before doing a pretty poor job with the Lions, and then overseeing a genuine disaster with Wales. There are very few other examples, as most coaches retire or step back into lesser roles when they enter their 60s. Mick Byrne actually has 34 years experience in coaching (but only 23 years coaching in rugby) and at 66 he’s the oldest coach of a top 10 side, and he’s actually doing really well. He goes to show that you can continue to be a good coach well into your 60s, but he seems like an outlier.


So the point is - right now, Les Kiss looks like a pretty reliable option, but 5 years ago so did Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland before they went on to prove that coaches often decline as they get older. If Australia want Kiss as a short term appointment to take over after Schmidt leaves in the summer, I don’t think that would be a terrible idea - but NB wanted Kiss as a long term appointment starting in 2027! That’s a massive risk, given the chance that his aptitude will begin to decline.


Its kind of analagous to how players decline. We know (for example) that a fly-half can still be world class at 38, but we also know that most fly-halves peak in their mid-to-late 20s, so it is generally considered a risk to build your game plan around someone much older than that.

171 Go to comments
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