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Thanks G, read your illuminatin post above!

Excellent comment G.

500k registered players in SA are scoolgoers and 90% of them don't go on to senior club rugby. SA is fed by having hundreds upon hundreds of schools that play rugby - school rugby is an institution of note in SA - but as I say for the vast majority when they leave school that's it.

There is a continued murmur in local circles about reciprocal bi annual tours between SA and Argentine. Whether it's full blooded test tours or development tours or a mixture - ie touring with a "test" 20 and a development 20 the cream of which will be used in tests. We actually really enjoy playing the Argies and I believe they enjoy playing us. It goes back seventy years to the Junior Bok tours to Argentine involving Isaac van Heerden.

About 500K of those are schoolboys 90% of which will not go on to play club rugby.

Exactly. Shoo would that it was so easy to develop competitions.

SA wealthy? Compared to which countries. The economy is in tatters unemployment is at record low numbers and you think SA has money to spend on rugby development -0 and remember the SARU was technically bankrupt and was only saved by the COVID tour of the B&I Lions. No Sa doesn't have spare cash lying round for rugby development and given the resources SARU is doing just fine.

South African domestic rugby is in great shape. Four top tier franchises fed by a series of competitions ranging from national schools competitions through Varsity Cup to Currie Cup and then to top four franchises is a model Australia would do well to follow. SA should never have more than four top domestic teams.

That might be the best spin off from SA's involvement north of the line.

Of course not Nick 😉

We have our own theories about The Sharks. Plumtree is a good coach but he has not done anywhere near the best he could with the talent and money he has at his disposal and it doesn't help to have a marquee director of rugby who has spent by far the majority of his career playing and coaching sevens.

Don't worry - you'll win again soon then you'll feel a lot better. Right now get on with your SH comps and we'll get on with being barely the best in the world.

JW you really have no idea of how Africa works. It will take generations not decades no matter how much SA puts into it. The poverty in Africa is something that is obviously beyond your understanding. Do you think the governments of impoverished nations are going to watch happily as rugby pours massive investments into infrastructure to promote what is essentially a white western game? And SA was trying hard to develop the game in Africa until the African vote blocked our "23 bid after the independent consultants to the RFU voted unanimously for SA? The Confederation of African Rugby virtually excluded South Africa.

Nick, our association with Argentina Rugby runs very long and deep. We are exploring reciprocal two/three test tours in the future - and even more games at neutral venues such as in Europe where a lot of both teams have players anyway.

"has SA actually EVER helped to develop another union to maturity like NZ has with Japan," yes - Argentina. You obviously don't know the history of Argentinian rugby. SA were touring there on long development tours in the 1950's

We continued the Junior Bok tours to the Argentine through to the early 70's

My coach at Grey High was Giepie Wentzel who toured Argentine as a fly half. He told me about how every Argentinian rugby club has pictures of Van Heerden and Danie Craven on prominent display. Yes we have developed a nation far more than NZ has done for Japan. And BTW Sa players were playing and coaching in Japan long before the Kiwis arrived. Fourie du Preez and many others were playing there 15 years ago.

"Isaac Van Heerden's reputation as an innovative coach had spread to Argentina, and he was invited to Buenos Aires to help the Pumas prepare for their first visit to South Africa in 1965.[1][2] Despite Argentina faring badly in this tour,[2] it was the start of a long and happy relationship between Van Heerden and the Pumas. Izak van Heerden took leave from his teaching post in Durban, relocated to Argentina, learnt fluent Spanish, and would revolutionise Argentine play in the late 1960s, laying the way open for great players such as Hugo Porta.[1][2] Van Heerden virtually invented the "tight loose" form of play, an area in which the Argentines would come to excel, and which would become a hallmark of their playing style. The Pumas repaid the initial debt, by beating the Junior Springboks at Ellis Park, and emerged as one of the better modern rugby nations, thanks largely to the talents of this Durban schoolmaster.[1]"

After the promise made by Junior Springbok manager JF Louw at the end of a 12-game tour to Argentina in 1959 – ‘I will do everything to ensure we invite you to tour our country’ – there were concerns about the strength of Argentinian rugby. South African Rugby Board president Danie Craven sent coach Izak van Heerden to help the Pumas prepare and they repaid the favour by beating the Junior Springboks at Ellis Park.

Which country do you think was instrumental in developing rugby in Argentina which then spun off into the rest of Latin South America? South Africa was touring Argentine in the 50's with their Junior Bok side on three months development tours. And they didn't do it to cultivare players for the Boks. Regarding Africa you are not taking into account that South Africa itself is an emerging nation. The rugby union has prioritised the development of rugby in South African rural communities with outstanding success.

It has taken 15 years to build the participation of rugby both in playing and watching. For South Africa on its own to build a viable international rugby competition in africa will take generations - not decades. New Zealanders seem to resent the fact that SA has doubled the income of the URC since their inclusion. If New Zealand Rugby hadn't insisted on have a disproportionate slice of the pie in Super Rugby, SA might not have fled the coop.

I think this debate is avoiding the elephant in the room. Money. According to the URC chief executive Martin Anayi, the inclusion of SA teams has doubled the income of the URC. There is no doubt that the SA teams benefit from the URC but so do the other countries' teams. Perhaps it doesn't affect a club like Leinster but the less well off clubs benefit hugely from South African games' TV income. I don't think SA continued inclusion in the URC is a slam dunk. They don't hold all the cards by a long way - but they do have an ace in the hole. The Ace of Diamonds.

Don't think you've watched enough. I'll take him over anything I's seen so far. But let's see how the future pans out. I'm quietly confident we have a row of 10's lined uo who would each start in many really good teams.

Hopefully Joe stays where he is. That would mean Les, McKellar, larkham and Cron should as well. It’s the stability we need in the state programs. But, if Joe goes, RA with its current financial situation will be forced into promoting from within. And this will likely destabilise other areas.

To better understand some of the entrenched bitterness of those outside of NZ and NSW (as an example 😂), Nic, there is probably a comparison to the old hard heads of welsh rugby who are still stuck in the 1970s. Before the days where clubs merged, professionalism started, and the many sharp knives were put into the backs of those who loved the game more than everyone else. I’m sure you know a few... But given your comparison of rugby in both wales and Australia, there are a few north of the tweed that will never trust a kiwi or NSWelshman because of historical events and issues over the history of the game. It is what it is. For some, time does not heal all wounds. And it is still festering away in some people. Happy holidays to you. All the best in 2025.