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'I had a two-year deal with them' - Why Cobus Wiese turned down Saracens

Cobus Wiese (Photo by Lewis Storey/Getty Images)

The final month of an unprecedented year has seen Cobus Wiese face the shock exit of Steve Diamond, Sale Shark’s director of rugby, suffer three successive defeats and experience snow for the first time in his life.

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Normally, Wiese and his family are enjoying a summer festive period in South Africa and while he was dealing with a winter Christmas Day temperature of 4C in Manchester it was 24C in Cape Town where he impressed for Western Province and the Stormers to earn a chance to join an 11 strong contingent of his fellow countrymen at Sale. “I saw snow falling for the first time two days ago and that was special,” said Wiese, whose older brother Jasper has made a big impact at No.8 for Leicester this season.

The Sale squad was put together by Diamond who stunned the sport by leaving Sale at the start of December with Paul Deacon given temporary control. There has been no “bounce” from a change at the top with Sale losing successive Heineken Champions Cup matches to Toulon and Edinburgh and they allowed Wasps to register a 26-23 win at the AJ Bell Stadium which makes their trip to Gloucester on Saturday a chance to make a much-needed winning start the New Year.

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Brian Moore in conversation with Jim Hamilton:

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Brian Moore in conversation with Jim Hamilton:

When Wiese saw his proposed move to Saracens torpedoed by the London club’s relegation to the Championship, he took advice from Rob du Preez, one of the key figures at Sale, and signed. The 23-year-old can play lock or flanker and is seen as a key ball carrier in a muscular Sale pack built to maintain their position as one of the strongest squads in the Gallagher Premiership.

Despite those three defeats, Sale are in fourth place in the Premiership having been denied the chance of a play-off place last season when a raft of positive COVID-19 tests meant they could not take on Worcester in the final fixture. With Diamond driving the club forward, Sale – currently operating without long term injuries Lood de Jager and Manu Tuilagi – appeared to be equipped to roll confidently into the new season.

Diamond’s exit has become the obvious reason for December’s losses and Wiese said: “It did have an impact but not enough that we can use it as an excuse. We are determined to turn things around because we have World class players in our squad.

“You can either look at it as a negative or a massive opportunity and once we get our rhythm we can do something special this year. With everything that has happened we are really focused on creating an identity for ourselves. It is never easy to lose three games on the trot and we know we are good enough. We are ready to work hard and there is no lack in commitment and there is a massive opportunity going forward.

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“Against Wasps, Jono Ross (club captain) said it was as if we went into our shells in that second half when they scored two tries but we were only four points behind. It is about making a change as a collective and it’s not nice to lose three games on the trot but we have the right mindset and actions will speak louder than words.

Wiese <a href=
Cheetahs joins Leicester” width=”1920″ height=”1080″ /> (Photo By Harry Murphy/Sportsfile via Getty Images)

“I had the thought of coming over to the UK when I got an offer from Saracens and then they got relegated. I had a two-year deal with them which would have meant just one year in the Premiership which would have been a short time to make a name for yourself in the country. Sale gave me an offer and I spoke to Rob du Preez and asked about the club and he said it was top notch and all of the South African’s here made my decision easier.”

With 11 South Africans in the Sale dressing room, ensuring that their first language – Afrikaans – does not become a divisive factor is something that has been addressed by the entire squad. Wiese explained: “It is about respect and it is quite selfish to speak a language other players don’t understand and coming from Upington I could do with sharpening up my English! It is nice having guys reminding you not to speak Afrikaans around the English guys and we have addressed it.

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“Afrikaans is our first language and sometimes on the TV when they are covering a game you can hear Afrikaans being spoken. Against Edinburgh in the Heineken Cup there were South African players in their team and our lock James Phillips said that at one stage he felt he was in a South African competition!“

Despite his own physical size, Wiese gives away height to both Lood de Jager and JP du Preez, the latest arrival at Sale from South Africa who is almost 7ft and played alongside Jasper Wise at the Cheetahs. “I didn’t get to pay against JP in South Africa and only faced Lood once when he was at the Bulls. I am really excited to get the chance to play alongside them here at Sale.”

Wiese still has plenty of development to make in his game and hopes to attract the attention of the Springbok selectors by making an impact in the Premiership, particularly with the World Cup holders defending their title in France in 2023.

Wiese added: “South African players are known for the physical battle but you can develop more here playing in the Premiership. Other parts of your game can develop including handling and playing smarter and it is brilliant to get this opportunity. If you play well enough then you can get invited to one of the Springbok camps and it would be a massive honour but I have only been playing for four years. I have to focus on working hard every game and not get complacent.”

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f
fl 9 minutes ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

"fl's idea, if I can speak for him to speed things up, was for it to be semifinalists first, Champions Cup (any that somehow didn't make a league semi), then Challenge's semi finalists (which would most certainly have been outside their league semi's you'd think), then perhaps the quarter finalists of each in the same manner. I don't think he was suggesting whoever next performed best in Europe but didn't make those knockouts (like those round of 16 losers), I doubt that would ever happen."


That's not quite my idea.

For a 20 team champions cup I'd have 4 teams qualify from the previous years champions cup, and 4 from the previous years challenge cup. For a 16 team champions cup I'd have 3 teams qualify from the previous years champions cup, and 1 from the previous years challenge cup.


"The problem I mainly saw with his idea (much the same as you see, that league finish is a better indicator) is that you could have one of the best candidates lose in the quarters to the eventual champions, and so miss out for someone who got an easier ride, and also finished lower in the league, perhaps in their own league, and who you beat everytime."

If teams get a tough draw in the challenge cup quarters, they should have won more pool games and so got better seeding. My system is less about finding the best teams, and more about finding the teams who perform at the highest level in european competition.

50 Go to comments
f
fl 45 minutes ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

"Would I'd be think"

Would I'd be think.


"Well that's one starting point for an error in your reasoning. Do you think that in regards to who should have a say in how it's setup in the future as well? Ie you would care what they think or what might be more fair for their teams (not saying your model doesn't allow them a chance)?"

Did you even read what you're replying to? I wasn't arguing for excluding south africa, I was pointing out that the idea of quantifying someone's fractional share of european rugby is entirely nonsensical. You're the one who was trying to do that.


"Yes, I was thinking about an automatic qualifier for a tier 2 side"

What proportion of european rugby are they though? Got to make sure those fractions match up! 😂


"Ultimately what I think would be better for t2 leagues would be a third comp underneath the top two tournemnts where they play a fair chunk of games, like double those two. So half a dozen euro teams along with the 2 SA and bottom bunch of premiership and top14, some Championship and div 2 sides thrown in."

I don't know if Championship sides want to be commuting to Georgia every other week.


"my thought was just to create a middle ground now which can sustain it until that time has come, were I thought yours is more likely to result in the constant change/manipulation it has been victim to"

a middle ground between the current system and a much worse system?

50 Go to comments
f
fl 1 hour ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

"Huh? You mean last in their (4 team) pools/regions? My idea was 6/5/4, 6 the max, for guarenteed spots, with a 20 team comp max, so upto 5 WCs (which you'd make/or would be theoretically impossible to go to one league (they'd likely be solely for its participants, say 'Wales', rather than URC specifically. Preferrably). I gave 3 WC ideas for a 18 team comp, so the max URC could have (with a member union or club/team, winning all of the 6N, and Champions and Challenge Cup) would be 9."


That's a lot of words to say that I was right. If (e.g.) Glasgow won the URC and Edinburgh finished 16th, but Scotland won the six nations, Edinburgh would qualify for the Champions Cup under your system.


"And the reason say another URC (for example) member would get the spot over the other team that won the Challenge Cup, would be because they were arguable better if they finished higher in the League."

They would be arguably worse if they didn't win the Challenge Cup.


"It won't diminish desire to win the Challenge Cup, because that team may still be competing for that seed, and if theyre automatic qual anyway, it still might make them treat it more seriously"

This doesn't make sense. Giving more incentives to do well in the Challenge Cup will make people take it more seriously. My system does that and yours doesn't. Under my system, teams will "compete for the seed" by winning the Challenge Cup, under yours they won't. If a team is automatically qualified anyway why on earth would that make them treat it more seriously?


"I'm promoting the idea of a scheme that never needs to be changed again"

So am I. I'm suggesting that places could be allocated according to a UEFA style points sytem, or according to a system where each league gets 1/4 of the spots, and the remaining 1/4 go to the best performing teams from the previous season in european competition.


"Yours will promote outcry as soon as England (or any other participant) fluctates. Were as it's hard to argue about a the basis of an equal share."

Currently there is an equal share, and you are arguing against it. My system would give each side the opportunity to achieve an equal share, but with more places given to sides and leagues that perform well. This wouldn't promote outcry, it would promote teams to take european competition more seriously. Teams that lose out because they did poorly the previous year wouldn't have any grounds to complain, they would be incentivised to try harder this time around.


"This new system should not be based on the assumption of last years results/performances continuing."

That's not the assumption I'm making. I don't think the teams that perform better should be given places in the competition because they will be the best performing teams next year, but because sport should be based on merit, and teams should be rewarded for performing well.


"I'm specifically promoting my idea because I think it will do exactly what you want, increase european rugyb's importance."

how?


"I won't say I've done anything compressive"

Compressive.

50 Go to comments
J
JW 1 hour ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

Generally disagree with what? The possibility that they would get whitewashed, or the idea they shouldn't gain access until they're good enough?


I think the first is a fairly irrelevant view, decide on the second and then worry about the first. Personally I'd have had them in a third lvl comp with all the bottom dwellers of the leagues. I liked the idea of those league clubs resting their best players, and so being able to lift their standards in the league, though, so not against the idea that T2 sides go straight into Challenge Cup, but that will be a higher level with smaller comps and I think a bit too much for them (not having followed any of their games/performances mind you).

Because I don't think that having the possibility of a team finishing outside the quarter finals to qualify automatically will be a good idea. I'd rather have a team finishing 5th in their domestic league.

fl's idea, if I can speak for him to speed things up, was for it to be semifinalists first, Champions Cup (any that somehow didn't make a league semi), then Challenge's semi finalists (which would most certainly have been outside their league semi's you'd think), then perhaps the quarter finalists of each in the same manner. I don't think he was suggesting whoever next performed best in Europe but didn't make those knockouts (like those round of 16 losers), I doubt that would ever happen.


The problem I mainly saw with his idea (much the same as you see, that league finish is a better indicator) is that you could have one of the best candidates lose in the quarters to the eventual champions, and so miss out for someone who got an easier ride, and also finished lower in the league, perhaps in their own league, and who you beat everytime.

50 Go to comments
J
JW 1 hour ago
‘The problem with this year’s Champions Cup? Too many English clubs’

Well I was mainly referring to my thinking about the split, which was essentially each /3 rounded up, but reliant on WCs to add buffer.


You may have been going for just a 16 team league ranking cup?


But yes, those were just ideas for how to select WCs, all very arbitrary but I think more interesting in ways than just going down a list (say like fl's) of who is next in line. Indeed in my reply to you I hinted at say the 'URC' WC spot actually being given to the Ireland pool and taken away from the Welsh pool.


It's easy to think that is excluding, and making it even harder on, a poor performing country, but this is all in context of a 18 or 20 team comp where URC (at least to those teams in the URC) got 6 places, which Wales has one side lingering around, and you'd expect should make. Imagine the spice in that 6N game with Italy, or any other of the URC members though! Everyone talks about SA joining the 6N, so not sure it will be a problem, but it would be a fairly minor one imo.


But that's a structure of the leagues were instead of thinking how to get in at the top, I started from the bottom and thought that it best those teams doing qualify for anything. Then I thought the two comps should be identical in structure. So that's were an even split comes in with creating numbers, and the 'UEFA' model you suggest using in some manner, I thought could be used for the WC's (5 in my 20 team comp) instead of those ideas of mine you pointed out.


I see Jones has waded in like his normal self when it comes to SH teams. One thing I really like about his idea is the name change to the two competitions, to Cup and Shield. Oh, and home and away matches.

50 Go to comments
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