‘Needle’ is not the word. It is something stronger than that. There is the smell of bad blood in the water, a chance to redress ancient grievance. There will be grudges old and new to be settled on the New Zealand tour of Europe which begins in two weeks.
First England at the old cabbage patch on 2 November, then Ireland in Dublin one week later, followed by Les Bleus at the Stade de France on 16 November. There will some spleen to be vented in all three matches. By the time Scott Robertson’s All Blacks have finished that trifecta, they will probably be breathing a long sigh of relief, rolling down the gentle slope to Italy in Turin on 23 November.
The England resentment is the most historic of them all. The All Blacks do not like losing to the men in white. Who can forget the classic verbal duel between Kiwi fly-half Andrew Mehrtens and England supremo Clive Woodward after England won for the first time in 10 years back in 2002?
‘Mehrts’ did not mince his words: “England get a decent win about once every four years at Twickenham. They are pricks to lose to.” He received a response from Woodward which only aggravated an itch which will never stay truly scratched.
“I do not want to look like an arrogant Englishman. I am not going to be gloating as people have suggested in the last week. Mehrtens played very well in the second half – shame he did not just do his talking on the pitch. I was told by our New Zealand friends all week that rugby is about winning, and we won.”
Even Mehrtens’ skipper Taine Randell could not bring himself to make a bridge-mending remark after the event: “Mehrts does say some fine things, and that was very accurate.” Wind the clock on another year, and the atmosphere had not changed materially. The New Zealand number 10’s tone was more even, but the sentiment remained very much the same: “[Winning against England] is sweeter compared to the other scenario, which is not very pleasant. They would probably be the team that [other] sides enjoy losing to the least, to be fair. You’re made to feel it pretty intensely afterwards.”
Any residual historical animosity between England and New Zealand now seems like small potatoes in view of the far more recent ill-feeling between the All Blacks and Ireland. The spat between centre Rieko Ioane and Irish legend Johnny Sexton will not be forgiven or forgotten, by either side. Whatever is said in public, there will simply be too many players who remember Ireland’s winning tour of the shaky isles in 2022, and their heartbreaking, last-minute loss in the World Cup quarter-final one year later still running on to the field at the Aviva Stadium. The sharp edge of those memories will be honed, not dulled in Dublin.
The pre-match intensity was ramped up by Sexton’s revelations in his recently released autobiography Obsessed:
“I couldn’t bring myself to watch the quarter-final back. I don’t think I ever will. I don’t need to. I’ve mentally replayed every second, over and over.
“It finishes the same way every time. Rónan Kelleher still ploughs into Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock. Whitelock goes in for the poach, clearly without releasing, but somehow Wayne Barnes awards him the penalty, even though it has all happened under his nose – and it’s all over.
“And as I stand there, hands on hips, staring in disbelief at Barnes, Rieko Ioane still comes up to me and tells me, ‘Get back 10 metres’.
“Huh?”
“Penalty,” he says. “Back 10.” And then, after Barnes blows the final whistle, he says, “Don’t miss your flight tomorrow. Enjoy your retirement, you c***.”
“So much for the All Blacks’ famous “no d***heads” policy. So much for their humility. I walk after Ioane and call him a fake-humble f***er. It doesn’t look great, me having a go at one of them just after we’ve lost. But I can’t be expected to ignore that.”
Ioane responded by posting a picture of himself and Sexton on his Instagram account with Ireland’s World Cup theme-tune – the Cranberries’ Zombie – playing in the background. ‘In your head… in your head’.
On 16 November, that ‘bit of history in the annals of time’ laughed off by Robertson will suddenly rise from its mock-burial ground and become very real again, both physically and emotionally. It has been thus ever since Joe Schmidt’s charges defeated New Zealand at the home of the Bears, Soldier Field in Chicago in 2016, when ‘new Ireland’ was born. Since then, the record has changed, the one-way traffic has stopped and the All Blacks are no longer in Irish heads. No victories in 28 attempts transformed to five wins out of the past nine games since the watershed.
With France head coach Fabien Galthié fuelling another bonfire of resentment by stating his top 20 players – Antoine Dupont and all – will be withdrawn from the 2025 tour of New Zealand, there will be no less bite to third match on the end-of-year tour.
As Razor has rightly pointed out, there is now no longer any natural edge for the south over the north [except maybe at World Cups] and the games are evenly-poised. Although his All Blacks emerged with decent try-scoring total from the recent Rugby Championship [22 in six matches], a question mark about the effectiveness of the New Zealand attack against a dedicated rush defence still hovers stubbornly overhead.
Among the top-ranked defensive nations Razor has encountered so far, the All Blacks have scored 25 tries in five games against the countries who operate a more traditional up-and-out pattern [Argentina, Australia and Fiji] but only eight in four versus opponents who use up-and-in blitz [South Africa and England].
That suggests the All Blacks may continue to struggle against England and France in November; and Ireland, if Andy Farrell decides to shift towards a more aggressive defensive structure a la Nienaber’s Leinster: ‘In your head… In your head’.
The Rugby Championship double-header against the Springboks was the blitzing meat in between two slices of Argentine and Australian white bread. New Zealand converted four tries in the first game at Ellis Park, and it only cost the All Blacks five phases and nine passes to do it. They scored none in the return game at Cape Town as the Springboks shut the door hard on early-phase scores, forcing the visitors to work far longer for their rewards on attack.
The All Blacks have always tried to use more width than the mean over longer phase-counts, and the Rugby Championship was no exception.
The pick and go especially was conspicuous by its absence [comprising just 6% of all Kiwi attacking plays], despite at least one top practitioner of the art in Ardie Savea, as Razor consistently bemoaned the inability of his charges to take their chances out wide.
In both instances, the All Blacks are willing to enter the ‘venus flytrap’ and shift the ball wide knowing full well the front line of defence will do nothing but blitz the man with the ball.
In both clips, there are examples of high-level skill-sets on view, with passes in contact from the front by Jordie Barrett and Wallace Sititi, and playmaking under pressure from Will Jordan and Damian McKenzie behind them. But the outcome is the same, with Mark Telea forced back inside by the second-tier defence and twin turnovers resulting.
The snapshot shows the grisly reality of the modern game for any ambitious attacking side: the blitzer takes out the closest support player in the tackle and the space behind him is already saturated by three other defenders. Another 11-phase, 24-pass sequence later in the 11th minute underlined the problems.
There are at least three excellent passes – authored by first McKenzie, and then the two props, Tamaiti Williams and Tyrel Lomax – included in a sequence that moves the ball all the way from one sideline to the other, but the outcome is not a try or even a break, but a net five-metre gain.
Another nicely-weighted pass by Will Jordan in the first clip, and two rifled deliveries from McKenzie and Telea in the second, but still no sign of the Springboks being overlapped on the outside – just forced to concede a few meagre metres, step by step.
That means an awful lot of high-quality work on attack which is not manifestly reducing defensive co-ordination, or diminishing its predatory ability to pounce when the right moment arises.
Once again, some neat inter-passing among Ioane, McKenzie and Jordan on what promises to be the critical play, but instead of breaking through the full-back is taken to deck by Cheslin Kolbe and the All Blacks’ cleanout is outnumbered two to one on the following inevitable turnover of possession.
There will be blood – some good but much of it bad – on and off the field in November. An easy Grand Slam of the home nations on an end-of-year tour is a thing of the past, even for the mighty All Blacks. They will go into at least two, and possibly three of their four matches as underdogs, and that has probably never happened before.
The games against England, Ireland and France will all contain a degree of needle, and the litmus test of New Zealand’s ability to handle it will be their success at outsmarting rush defence with more aplomb. England will rush, France will rush. Hell, even Farrell may be persuaded to blitz more often – if only to get up close and personal, and in the faces of the men in black. In your face and in your head, there will be fightin’.
It's a preference call, yeah. I think Razor is learning about his "judgement" as he goes still.
I'm a bit sad that Razor hadn't been open (that we can tell so far) to playing Scott or Vai'i in the 6 jumper, but again, like many things (than he has also been critised as benefiting from), the injury situation prohibited him from really thinking about that early in the year. It would have reduced the risk of only having an unproven Finau, and a (already) found wanting Jacobsen (specifically as a) options at 6. Really anyway there was no chance Blackadder wasn't getting picked.
The worst cheat in rugby? Don't really see much substantiation for that. Can't comment on internet polls I know nothing about.
I read his book. He has an extremely driven and introverted personality. A worrier. A lot of his value in teams was his driving of standards. So if people didn't know their sh1t going through moves in training he let them know. He rubbed people up the wrong way sometimes. For example Racing bought a load of new players and Sexton thought some were lazy and there for the gravy train. He let one of them know in training. There was a physical fight/broken up. But the next training sessions that guy and the gravy trainers knew their sh1t. And that was what Sexton was paid to do. Reading the book Sexton progresses from some real amateur stuff early in his professional career to the player and leader he turned out to be. There is absolutely no way he achieves that without his personality even with his flaws.
I've laughed out loud at some of his f**k ups as I read. He admits them.
I remember watching on TV several of them talking about him, can't remember who. But Cooney is one that I remember well.
Statesmen don't win unpopularity contests. As well as that win by POM, Sexton was voted the worst cheat in rugby.
Because Blackadder is always injured? That's a reasonable point but I'm in the "pick him when he's fit and someone else when he's injured" camp. It's a judgement call.
Aren't you suggest that 'he' thought Sititi could play 6, "and was proved right"? That is disingenuous and in hindsight.
If you're concededing that he was right that Sititi was a better pick than Sotutu, then now all we need to do is work out where Jacobsen sits lol
I would have happily switched Blackadder for Sotutu but NB doesn't want that one! I'm not sure I resolved why Blackadder played 7 and Jacobsen 6 in that Fiji test.
Sure, but you've criticised him for not selecting a third string specialist 8 in the squad.
And considering that Ardie has remained an 80 minute player at 8, while Jacobson was needed at 7 so often this year, it has proven to be the correct decision. A third 8 would have been superfluous, while we needed the extra cover at 7.
My idea of the general consensus of all forums I listen to.
I remember, but I forget why (if you said). That's playing a different game, you can think of the consensus being about whether he could have made the squad, not where you would rank him in each position. He could have been used to play 8 against Fiji, but then you'd be sacrificing their preferred bench impact against England. Not really worth it, is it?
If I'm playing your game and just saying what I feel should have happened, I wouldn't have cared if Akira was leaving, he would have been my 6, and Sotutu could very well have been starting as my 8 because I wouldn't allow sabbaticals (as such, Ardie can come back to work but he's not getting the same role he had before he buggered off) and Ardie would be off the bench, playing for the right to start.
And if you're suggesting Razor should have changed his plans to revolve around a finish or start with Sotutu, well I'd reckon that would be like asking SB to immediately select MS, BS, and Freeman and change up his attack style as soon as he took over last year. Would have had a much better chance of winning a RWC if he did, but would there have been a much higher chance of failure compared to easing into like he has this year?
At least you now admit that what you've been asserting as fact is really just a theory. One that there is no real evidence for, just 2+2=5 jumps of logic. Still, it's been a great way to stir up discussion from a positive comment about Argentina. I can remember when you used to generate several hundred comments an article just from your analysis of on field play without stirring the pot. Those were great days.
Your conspiracy theory about "a strategic off field war" falls down when you consider the words of Irishmen like Zebo and Quinlan who have added to the narrative that this Ireland team or individuals in it are widely disliked internationally. You might well have found the players to be good colleagues in the team environment but there's clearly something in some of their behaviour that gets up a lot of people's noses around the world - in Sexton's case this includes some of his own teammates. Perhaps it's a cultural thing - what's acceptable in one group can cross a red line in others.
How was it found to be right exactly?
As I posted elsewhere on the thread, I felt Sotutu should have been given the nod ahead of Jacobsen, not Sititi.
I said 'he' [Razor] was proved right, not me JD 😂
It was a solution and it worked [even if I feel they could do even better at 7]...
It has some merit - it can be more difficult to select the right combination if a lot of players involved have similar strength and weaknesses.
Whatver you think of him, Hoskins is a bit different.
There we are then, problem solved!
The basic point point is the same JD. You've claimed that Ireland's behaviour is more objectionable and they are disliked more than other international teams. Beyond the usual friction between winning and losing teams neither statement is true.
As theories go, the one which has the ABs reacting badly to losing regularly to the same opponent is vastly more interesting than the one that claims a whole rugby nation and its supporters suddenly became 'arrogant' arounf 2022. Apparently without winning anything of note ['the World Cup is the only one that matters'].
It's not even worth worth the soggy newsprint.😉
That's all very "Captain Hindsight" Nick. When the squad was picked Razor was hardly to know that Sititi would be such a good test 6 on the basis of two matches at NPC level and none at SR level in his entire career. He was only selected there after two months in camp, with injuries to other contenders and Finau not being effective requiring a creative solution.
It wasn't me who brought up the word "arrogant" or the concept of arrogance. I talked about their behaviour making them widely disliked. I only used the A word in that last post you're replying to, in response to your use of it.
As for me as "an intelligent poster" getting involved in "a strategic off-field war" you should have read up the thread before posting that. You got involved first by twisting a positive comment about Argentina into a negative one about Ireland and then stating that "spats ensue" "when NZ feels challenged by the likes of Ireland".
You also twisted my words in your final post above. I didn't say that 'Anyone who doesn't believe Ireland is arrogant must be arrogant themselves'. I said that it was arrogant to believe that "people don't like us because we're so good".
Are you suggesting they should have promoted Finau to 6 for SA2? Or had Luke come straight back from injury to start?
You know all other options were injured right? I'm very happy Razor decided to try him at 6, it by no means he was selected to play there or anywhere else but 8. Are you being genuine here? Trust us, the decision to not select Sotutu was widely critiqued here and was found to be the best/right decision.
There were a myriad of things Razor could have done, but from what is expected and accepted, Finau came in place of Frizell, and Sititi earned new blood inclusion along with Darry at lock, Tosi at prop, Ratima in the halves, Proctor in the centers, and Perofeta in the outsides. I don't think you should expect the loosies to be treated differently just because Sotutu was available. If you just think Sotutu should have been included over Sititi based on your previously conclusions at the end of SR, well, you'll just have to accept you've been proved wrong.
Santa always gives me book for xmas so that's sorted.!
No comment.! 😂
And then he proceeded to pick Sititi at 6 anyway [his Dad's old position] and keep Ardie at 8. And he was proved right.
Surely the real point is that five of the seven players in that back-row selection turned out to be multi-positional? Make that six if you count a handful of games Finau has started at 8 for the Chiefs.
So yes, they could have done with a player who not only specialised at 8, but also specialised at lineout given the troubles they had in the seond Test v England.
Counter-mauling?? You think that was the innovation?🤣
Fair enough!
The point is that they are all fictional stories with 'examples' pumped-up on steroids to make the narrative seem convincing.
There's a lot of that about nowadays and it's penetrated rugby too.
They are not real grievances until you give them added life by believing them to be so JW. Then they can become monsters with a life of their own.
The real experiences behind them are tiny, petty things not worthy of comment at all - and not signifying any bigger 'story'. Do you really think that Sam Cane cares about a POM sledge? Or that POM himself believes what he said? Ofc not.
Wake up.
Leinster have had as much inlfuence over the Irish national setup as the Crusaders have enjoyed in NZ, maybe more so. Frequently there have been as many as 12 Leinster players starting for Ireland in recent times.
FYI Johnny S is not arrogant, he is stroppy - very stroppy.😂
Ah and the final fallacy - 'Anyone who doesn't believe Ireland is arrogant must be arrogant themselves'.
You could try learning to distinguish between reality and the media power-plays which go on all the time between the top rivals.
When Rassie produced his little vid after losing the first Test of the Lions series in 2021 he had an aim in mind and he achieved it, reversing the pen count, portraying the Lions as the real cheats and his team as unfairly dealt to. The media undercurrent of Irish arrogance has been peddled ever since the 2022 series and some have drunk the kool-aid.
It's all part of a strategic off-field war and you would do well to withdraw from it as an intelligent poster.
If you didn't feel that way good for you! You're properly adjusted😁
I recently read another forum thread in which these accusations appeared and neither Irish nor AB fans on the thread could connect with them at all!
But there is also an off-field war conducted through media channels trying to create a story outta nothing, and this is the fruit of it.
It just shows you are one of the good uns MOMAAB👍
I'm surprised at your lack of knowledge on this Nick. Razor specifically said that it was a straight choice between Sotutu and Sititi as the second 8. Not surprising considering that Wallace has never even come on at 8 in Super Rugby, let alone started there. His entire senior experience at 6 is two matches in the NPC.
As for the idea that a squad should have a third string specialist 8 - Please!
Leinster or indeed Ireland hardly have a Crusaders level of success. The Cantabs recently won seven years in a row. How many trophies in a row have Leinster failed to win now? What people don't like is the fair or unfair perception that the IRFU favour them over the other provinces and that they're able to keep great depth and respect players for Europe. Although I had to laugh at the idea of a team featuring Sexton didn't contain anyone arrogant. I've even read Irish teammates complaining about that!
This "people don't like us because we're so good" fantasy is in itself arrogant. Ireland and Leinster are good but not demonstrably better than everyone else. Dismissing comments about how different nations dislike them so much - at a time when coaches and players are careful not to say anything controversial in public - just masks reality.
I've just listed three countries other than NZ with a particular dislike for this Irish team. I could provide links if I was allowed. Your examples don't even fit the "disliked because they're so good" theory - as I posted earlier England were strongly disliked before they became good and Ireland were poor at the time of the BOD haka controversy.
Teams are liked or disliked according to their own behaviour. Being one of the top teams hardly means that you're going to be disliked more than the other top teams.
You've got that wrong as well. The dislike of England certainly existed in the Brian Moore days, well before 2000. England were never better than us in those days but the All Blacks always disliked them more than Australia who emerged in the 80s much like Ireland have.
Which blows apart the argument that the All Blacks can't take a team rising to challenge them. Behaviour is taken on its own merits.
Yep, a lot of unfortunate injuries, though you're right, I would have persisted with Finau or moved Barrett and given Sititi a lot more time at 8. Ethan should certainly have not been in the squad, we can all agree there at least!
Sititi is more a 7 than a 6, and I would have liked Lakai and him to be behind DP (though not playing). Razor suggested Sotutu would have been the next call up but I wonder if Lakai shouldn't have actually been. A lot of criticisms of Razors selections, Ethan, Bell, Fihaki, even Havili.
Haha did you actually watch that video? Are you sick of 'panels' that always play good cop bad cop? Do you have that phenom up north? Wilson really didn't want to 'like' the Crusaders lol
Did you read the comments in that article you linked (you're not going to get any value out of what a writer puts in his sotry)? They are real grievances, which create animosity over time, stuff like 'success' is just made up garbage (no idea if that's what JDs examples are) to hype things up.
I would have thought the real grievances against Leinster would be from within and nothing to do their own perceived success but actually how that success was achieved over time, that's what I have felt in the year I've been on this site at least (no real exposure to northern domestic footys fans before that). So everything to do with circumstances like Carlos Spencer sticking it up the Crusaders crowd (don't think Reiko's version would do anything like that) or Quade's 'arrogant' reaction to animosity shown towards him after the McCaw incident, as well has Gregan cheating to strike the ball Wilson's hands.
Who... drunk all the kool-aid? Not a bit sheepish now Nick? 😜
There no doubt miserable grinches in NZ who feel that way but you don’t see them outside of the internet. Christ that’s a sad way to feel about a sport.
In actual real life Ireland are very highly regarded in NZ, and it isn’t just because of their results it’s the brand of rugby they play, it’s great to watch.
It’s also natural to be competitive with an ethos of stomping the guts out of your opponents ie Conan The Barbarian’s ‘what is best in life?’ speech.
It’s all lots of fun.
They just used to cheat a lot!
I don't see that at all. I see a antsy SA country at the lack of recognition and respect, primarily from that new upstart country, and the international media with no idea of NZ rugby other than what has resulted from the ABs performances over the last decade.
It was hilarious how other teams weren't even aware that NZ turned a corner a year or two back. Those two things aside would have generated the most discrepancies in perspectives ("heat") imo. Irelands results here got huge respect, especially when they did eventually back it up. So much so that I blamed Ireland on NZ's 19' WC exit, we did the same thing then, in not concentrating on the next game against England, that Ireland did this WC.
What for, aren't you enjoying it?
😂😂😂
Why thank you, I'm flattered.!
Actually that's a very good point, still grubby play though 😁
Ahh yes Mr Quade Cooper, & you're right, another Aussie villain (well a kiwi aussie) us kiwis love to hate. He ultimately learnt that kneeing an AB captain in the head is generally not a good idea. Later on Brad Thorn dropped him from the Reds & that certainly hampered his involvement with the Wallabies. He was a bit like Carlos Spencer, both of them had insane skills, but could also be very ordinary on defense.
Read Ted's book account of 2007 v France. It's all a conspiracy I tell you 🤣
I reckon the majority of AB fans are the same as you Cos. Ofc the extremists always tend to make a louder noise!
Rassie only says such stuff if he feels it might give the Boks an advantage and he stopped pretty darn quickly!
I think that's a fair comment. Look at all the to-do before England played NZ in Wellington in 2003. All the nonsense 'white orcs on steroids' comment. When they won having 13 men on the field for parts of the second half it did not get much better!